D&D 4E 5E Through a 4E Lens

A few years back, Rob Schwalb did an experiment on his blog: he took bits of the 4e cleric and reformatted them to match the visual look of previous editions of D&D. Since a couple of my players were coming from long-running 4e games (even though they played 3e before that), I decided to do the opposite: take bits of a 5e class, and reformat it to match the visual cues of 5e. I did this mainly to explain the current spellcasting system, where you prepare (or simply know) spells, and power them through spell slots (without losing the prepared spell).

The major breakthrough was turning the actual Spell Slot into the "daily power" (or "encounter", in the case of a warlock), with the effect being left to the spell the caster chooses to invest the slot into. Cantrips, on the other hand, match the 4e at-will structure as-is (with the actual cantrip being the "at-will power").

View attachment 66395


​

 

[Pauper]

The only way to explain that in a 4e structure is to -- as someone commented upthread -- frame it around something like Channel Divinity (one power that can have different effects).

I disagree -- in fact, the 4e wizard already does something very much like spell slots with the Spellbook feature -- you have a number of powers available to you, but you 'prepare' only one for use. You can also model the increased power of using a lower level spell in a higher level spell slot by using a variant of the existing 4e 'augment' mechanic. So you'd end up with a power that looks something like this:

Access Spell Slot -- Wizard Utility 16
At-Will * Arcane
Free Action - Personal

Requirement: You must have expended a wizard daily power.

Effect: You may choose any wizard power of level equal to or lower than the expended power, including the wizard power that was expended. You gain a use of that power. If you gain a use of a 9th level daily power in this way, it gains Power-up 2. If you gain a use of a 5th level daily power in this way, it gains Power-up 3. If you gain a use of a 1st level daily power in this way, it gains Power-up 4.

The Power-up ability would become a rider on all arcane daily powers, much like psionic powers had augment abilities. The Power-up for Thunderwave (above) might look like this:

Power-up: For each point of Power-up gained by this power, deal an additional 1d8 thunder damage.

Using Channel Divinity to model these powers may seem more elegant at first glance, but that would basically turn every spell in the game into a 4e Channel Divinity power -- and since 5e has kept Channel Divinity in the game, that would quickly become confusing.

I do agree that the cantrips would become at-will spells, while the 'regular' spells would become daily powers. You might be able to model some class features as encounter powers, but that's where the AED analogy starts to break down when discussing 5e spellcasting (unless you're talking about the warlock, whose spell slots would all be encounter powers and who really does look a lot like a 4e wizard).

 

[Klaus]

I disagree -- in fact, the 4e wizard already does something very much like spell slots with the Spellbook feature -- you have a number of powers available to you, but you 'prepare' only one for use. You can also model the increased power of using a lower level spell in a higher level spell slot by using a variant of the existing 4e 'augment' mechanic. So you'd end up with a power that looks something like this:

Access Spell Slot -- Wizard Utility 16
At-Will * Arcane
Free Action - Personal

Requirement: You must have expended a wizard daily power.

Effect: You may choose any wizard power of level equal to or lower than the expended power, including the wizard power that was expended. You gain a use of that power. If you gain a use of a 9th level daily power in this way, it gains Power-up 2. If you gain a use of a 5th level daily power in this way, it gains Power-up 3. If you gain a use of a 1st level daily power in this way, it gains Power-up 4.

The Power-up ability would become a rider on all arcane daily powers, much like psionic powers had augment abilities. The Power-up for Thunderwave (above) might look like this:

Power-up: For each point of Power-up gained by this power, deal an additional 1d8 thunder damage.

Using Channel Divinity to model these powers may seem more elegant at first glance, but that would basically turn every spell in the game into a 4e Channel Divinity power -- and since 5e has kept Channel Divinity in the game, that would quickly become confusing.

I do agree that the cantrips would become at-will spells, while the 'regular' spells would become daily powers. You might be able to model some class features as encounter powers, but that's where the AED analogy starts to break down when discussing 5e spellcasting (unless you're talking about the warlock, whose spell slots would all be encounter powers and who really does look a lot like a 4e wizard).

See, now you're creating a new 4e mechanic to mimic the 5e mechanic. Which is fine, if that is your goal. But mine is -- as I said -- to teach the 5e mechanics as efficiently as possible.

As for Channel Divinity being in the game: they *are* the same mechanic, except CD is a short rest-based, "encounter" power. It doesn't have a level, but other wise it's the same resource-management.

Man, now I wanna do a Channel Divinity card!

 

[KarinsDad]

I am keeping bloodied in every campaign of any rule set ever... and I also like save ends

What are you using bloodied for in 5E?


Historically, we used the equivalent of bloodied in 2E and 3E to give a -1 to all rolls (-2 in some campaigns) having used a similar mechanic in Rolemaster.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

What are you using bloodied for in 5E?


Historically, we used the equivalent of bloodied in 2E and 3E to give a -1 to all rolls (-2 in some campaigns) having used a similar mechanic in Rolemaster.

we use it as short hand for how well things are going (Are the players bloodied, they need healing, is the monster bloodied the fight almost over..)

In one of the playtests I ran we used fatigued when bloodied...but it didn't work out so well

 

[keterys]

Since you have no visible injuries until below half hit points, we sometimes jokingly use the term "damaged" as 5e's bloodied.

"Does he look damaged? Okay, good, he's below half hit points"

 

[aramis erak]

What are you using bloodied for in 5E?

It's actually in the 5E rules - it's a condition with no mechanical effects in 5e, but there for narrative and combat information reasons.

DESCRIBING THE EFFECTS OF DAMAGE
Dungeon Masters describe hit point loss in different ways. When your current hit point total is half or more of your hit point maximum. you typically show no signs of injury. When you drop below half your hit point maximum, you show signs of wear, such as cuts and bruises. An attack that reduces you to 0 hit points strikes you directly, leaving a bleeding injury or other trauma, or it simply knocks you unconscious.
(phb, 197)​

 

[ingeloak]

true enough, and i did play 4E for several years. there were other issues with it, some good and bad. long story short, i didnt like it enough to keep playing once 5E came out. one of my group misses 4E very much, but for the most part all are happy to be playing 5th. it was slow, too mechanical and pure "wargame" tactical, and from a guy who plays spellcasters, it took too much away from wizards in the interest of what they termed balance. buff spells sucked, most damage was too low for the spell level. players got forced into a pigeon-hole role of "defender, leader, controller, striker" whether they wanted to or not. Essentials offered some leeway with alternative roles (Controller Ranger, etc) but it really was just 1 problem in a list.

 

[KarinsDad]

It's actually in the 5E rules - it's a condition with no mechanical effects in 5e, but there for narrative and combat information reasons.

DESCRIBING THE EFFECTS OF DAMAGE
Dungeon Masters describe hit point loss in different ways. When your current hit point total is half or more of your hit point maximum. you typically show no signs of injury. When you drop below half your hit point maximum, you show signs of wear, such as cuts and bruises. An attack that reduces you to 0 hit points strikes you directly, leaving a bleeding injury or other trauma, or it simply knocks you unconscious.
(phb, 197)​

Interesting. I will point this out to my DM.


This weekend, my Wizard PC died. We were fighting 4 lesser skeletal undead and something larger and tougher that was able to use lightning bolts. It hurled a Lightning Bolt through my PC and another PC. My PC failed his save, but Arcane Ward prevented him from going unconscious at 2 hit points. Knowing that the creature had already been hit at least once, I threw a Scorching Ray at it to take it out as fast as possible. It then proceeded to throw a second lighting bolt, this time through multiple PCs (mine included). I made the save (and did not die immediately), but promptly rolled two 1s on two death saving throws (my luck with dice has not been improving ).

If I had known about this rule, at 2 hit points, I might have asked my DM about its condition and cast Fog Cloud instead, knowing that I probably could not take it out with a single spell even though it had already been hit. This is very useful information to know when making casting decisions.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

If I had known about this rule, at 2 hit points, I might have asked my DM about its condition and cast Fog Cloud instead, knowing that I probably could not take it out with a single spell even though it had already been hit. This is very useful information to know when making casting decisions.

It's not a rule, per se. I mean, it says right up front that Dungeon Masters describe hit point loss in different ways. Some DMs might say that it's injured as soon as it takes 1hp of damage. Some might say that it's unscratched, as long as it has 1hp left. It's just, typically, a lot of DMs may choose to describe it that way.

 

[KarinsDad]

It's not a rule, per se. I mean, it says right up front that Dungeon Masters describe hit point loss in different ways. Some DMs might say that it's injured as soon as it takes 1hp of damage. Some might say that it's unscratched, as long as it has 1hp left. It's just, typically, a lot of DMs may choose to describe it that way.

Agreed. In this case, however, the DM is my high school aged daughter who cut her teeth on 4E, so stating that a foe is bloodied or not is pretty much second nature. She'll use the intent of the quoted text (to indicate to players during combat a rough idea of how much NPCs are damaged).