D&D General 5e Tier 2 Play: Advice

[Theory of Games]

So... there's a "multiple monster XP modifier." In scenes with lots of monsters you don't use RAW XP for encounter building maths in 5e – it gets adjusted by this "multiple monster XP modifier" due to just how big of a factor having an action economy advantage is.

I'll attach a snapshot of what I'm referring to from DMG page 82.

This is not perfect – there's also newer encounter building stuff in Xanathar's – but this multiplier IS something that my experience tells me is important to factor. Again, I'll reiterate that the WotC maths for Encounter Multipliers in the DMG is... it's not precise... do TWO monsters really need a multiplier? No that's dumb... but it's the general IDEA around comparing action economies that's important to keep in mind.

View attachment 376801

For example, 15 bugbears will sum up to 3,000 XP, but then the x4 multiplier makes the threat they present to a typically sized party of PCs more like 12,000 XP. The DMG makes this sound precise. It's not. But the point is they're much more threatening than the 3,000 XP you assumed because they get so many more actions than the party.

Going back to my method – total adventuring day budget for this part of Five 6th level PCs is 20,000 (Adjusted) XP.

My experience is that throwing ~50% of that total (Adjusted) XP at a 6th level party in one encounter is going to be pushing them to their limits. So the 15 bugbears would – obviously depending on circumstances (e.g. 150 feet away in open terrain with two PCs casting fireballs? the party surprising the bugbears? etc) – be much more likely to play out like a brutal scene where they are fighting for their lives and having to pull out all the stops.

Ok. SO a group of 30 Kobolds = 3000 XP, using the EM. Considering the DPR of five 6th-level PCs who probably have magic items (and at least one arcane caster), 30 kobolds is a joke. By the same tables, 6 Kobolds would be a HARD encounter for four 1st-level PCs.

The whole thing is silly because the tables assume the capabilities of the PCs. And knowing how powerful arcane magic is at all levels, I'd ignore the multiplier and give the monsters a chance. One thing old-school players (BECMI/AD&D) learned was some encounters you fight, some you negotiate, and some you run from.

But, that's just me.

 

[Quickleaf]

Ok. SO a group of 30 Kobolds = 3000 XP, using the EM. Considering the DPR of five 6th-level PCs who probably have magic items (and at least one arcane caster), 30 kobolds is a joke. By the same tables, 6 Kobolds would be a HARD encounter for four 1st-level PCs.

The whole thing is silly because the tables assume the capabilities of the PCs. And knowing how powerful arcane magic is at all levels, I'd ignore the multiplier and give the monsters a chance. One thing old-school players (BECMI/AD&D) learned was some encounters you fight, some you negotiate, and some you run from.

But, that's just me.

So... Yeah, you and I may be more comfortable with the "eyeballing/intuiting it" approach. For the benefit of the OP (and others in same boat), I will elucidate further....

First of all, the Easy/Medium/Hard/Deadly designations are notoriously bad guidelines. You'll notice that's why in my advice above I did not mention those whatsoever.

However, in regards to the Kobold comment, I think you may be forgetting this particular part of the 5e DMG, because immediately prior to that Multiplier table I shared is another tidbit...

So there's a few ways I've used this when presenting kobolds to a higher level party.... One is when mixing CRs not to include the kobolds' XP at all. Two is to not include the Multiplier when presenting an all-kobolds encounter. Combined with my previous advice, those approaches have been useful when guesstimating difficulty.

 

[Theory of Games]

So... Yeah, you and I may be more comfortable with the "eyeballing/intuiting it" approach. For the benefit of the OP (and others in same boat), I will elucidate further....

First of all, the Easy/Medium/Hard/Deadly designations are notoriously bad guidelines. You'll notice that's why in my advice above I did not mention those whatsoever.

However, in regards to the Kobold comment, I think you may be forgetting this particular part of the 5e DMG, because immediately prior to that Multiplier table I shared is another tidbit...

View attachment 376815

So there's a few ways I've used this when presenting kobolds to a higher level party.... One is when mixing CRs not to include the kobolds' XP at all. Two is to not include the Multiplier when presenting an all-kobolds encounter. Combined with my previous advice, those approaches have been useful when guesstimating difficulty.

I agree with your points, but, the language in the text is so .......... what it's really saying is

"We here at Wizards of the Coast have ZERO naughty word idea how to manage combat encounters. But try this."

And that failed approach to "balance" combat encounters is why so many GMs were AND STILL ARE complaining about how players are slamming their monsters. It's why I only ran 5e once and never will again.

 

[HaroldTheHobbit]

For me, 5e is a system that after a couple of levels become more and more of a superhero game both in practice and presumptions. That is, everyone around the table knows that real death is a very, very remote possibility, no matter how I try to challenge them in combat. Instead the focus is on time pressure, problem solving etc. The fights are there because, well, sometimes players want to roll to hit, kill stuff and get leveling payoff in blood. There's a silent agreement around the table that we pretend that fights are dangerous, just like in superhero gaming. And that's fine for what it is.

You have good advice above in the thread for 5e. Personally, I choose older editions or an OSRish game when I want something that is deadly and challenging for real.

 

[Quickleaf]

I agree with your points, but, the language in the text is so .......... what it's really saying is

"We here at Wizards of the Coast have ZERO naughty word idea how to manage combat encounters. But try this."

And that failed approach to "balance" combat encounters is why so many GMs were AND STILL ARE complaining about how players are slamming their monsters. It's why I only ran 5e once and never will again.

Indeed. Well said!

I’m much less active in the 5e space recently (in terms of play, purchasing, publishing/writing), but I do like seeing creative approaches to 5e. I think there’s a lot of creativity out there & lots of earned wisdom through play. One of my long term goals- my last personal goal with 5e- is to publish a high-level dungeon adventure for 5e.

 

[Theory of Games]

Indeed. Well said!

I’m much less active in the 5e space recently (in terms of play, purchasing, publishing/writing), but I do like seeing creative approaches to 5e. I think there’s a lot of creativity out there & lots of earned wisdom through play. One of my long term goals- my last personal goal with 5e- is to publish a high-level dungeon adventure for 5e.

Nothing like a delicious, well-done dungeon to serve to anxious players. Let us know when you kickstart it

 

[Quickleaf]

Nothing like a delicious, well-done dungeon to serve to anxious players. Let us know when you kickstart it

Hah, going to have to fully crack high-level play issues & playtest playtest playtest first!

 

[Theory of Games]

For me, 5e is a system that after a couple of levels become more and more of a superhero game both in practice and presumptions. That is, everyone around the table knows that real death is a very, very remote possibility, no matter how I try to challenge them in combat. Instead the focus is on time pressure, problem solving etc. The fights are there because, well, sometimes players want to roll to hit, kill stuff and get leveling payoff in blood. There's a silent agreement around the table that we pretend that fights are dangerous, just like in superhero gaming. And that's fine for what it is.

You have good advice above in the thread for 5e. Personally, I choose older editions or an OSRish game when I want something that is deadly and challenging for real.

Quickleaf has great advice, agreed. I just ramble Like you I too prefer older editions, specifically the finest, most eloquent expression of role-playing in the Sword & Sorcery genre: