D&D 5E 5e Updates: Monstrous Compendium

Stalker0

Legend
So looking at its physical defense for a second (and this where I wanted to check if you were still wanting to stick to WOTC's terrible CR metrics at these levels or wanted an "actual" CR18 monster).

Take a basic champion 11th level fighter wtih a +2 longsword and dueling style (so just a regular old non-super optimized fighter just whacking away). In two rounds (assuming action surge), 3 of these guys would do 267 damage on average.

So with character much lower than the CR, and just 3 of them (which means a CR18 should be x2 deadly against them), I basically can vape this guy in 2 rounds. Not even a full party, and I'm not even assuming any magical spell buffs, advantage on attacks for the innumerable reasons you might have them, etc etc.

This is the most common problem with high CR monsters (that and they don't do enough damage). They just cannot take the pain of even mid-level character.
 

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dave2008

Legend
So looking at its physical defense for a second (and this where I wanted to check if you were still wanting to stick to WOTC's terrible CR metrics at these levels or wanted an "actual" CR18 monster).

Take a basic champion 11th level fighter wtih a +2 longsword and dueling style (so just a regular old non-super optimized fighter just whacking away). In two rounds (assuming action surge), 3 of these guys would do 267 damage on average.

So with character much lower than the CR, and just 3 of them (which means a CR18 should be x2 deadly against them), I basically can vape this guy in 2 rounds. Not even a full party, and I'm not even assuming any magical spell buffs, advantage on attacks for the innumerable reasons you might have them, etc etc.

This is the most common problem with high CR monsters (that and they don't do enough damage). They just cannot take the pain of even mid-level character.
FYI, by the XP budget in the DMG it takes about 3x deadly to make a fight a 50/50 proposition. So, that is actually working pretty close to as designed. Now, does it meet most peoples expectations - no, but that is another issue.

Regarding CR:
If I'm going to list a CR, I have decided to follow the CR guidelines as closely as possible. However, that is one of the major reasons for my Monsters by Level thread. Ultimately I want to create a new standard and ditch CR all together. When I get the baseline monster by level metric complete, I will be switching my monsters over to that standard.
 



NotAYakk

Legend
It is a bit of an extrapolation. The daily XP budget is what a group is expected to be able to handle in a day. Divide that by the deadly XP budget and you get 3x deadly (roughly) = daily budget.

I got the idea from DMDave: How to Create Epic Monster Encounters
PCs cannot, in general, access a full days worth of expected resources in a single encounter, unless it takes place over a 3 hour period and has 24+ turns of "engagement" with the foe. (aka, it is 8ish encounters, containing ~3 rounds of consequence each, with 2 short rests).

So that argument isn't a great one for what a 50:50 encounter consists of.
 

dave2008

Legend
PCs cannot, in general, access a full days worth of expected resources in a single encounter, unless it takes place over a 3 hour period and has 24+ turns of "engagement" with the foe. (aka, it is 8ish encounters, containing ~3 rounds of consequence each, with 2 short rests).

So that argument isn't a great one for what a 50:50 encounter consists of.
Yes and no. The daily budget is what PCs are expected to be able to handle. Your not "supposed" to end the day in a TPK, so it still tilted in the favor of the PCs from that respect. Also, spreading out your resources across a day only dilutes those resources, they are more potent nova'd in one encounter. So in the end of the day, IMO, while it is not a great explanation, it is better than anything else we have! :)

And, it basically works IME.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Hey @dave2008 I had this idea for Zargon I posted in the other thread, but thought its an interesting idea for maybe some dragons or other super armored tough creatures, so posting a version of it here in case you are interested. (I know you have tried a few mechanics for dragon defenses, but what's one more!)

Invulnerable Scales
The ancient dragon's scales are near impervious to weapon or spell, and have to be targetted and breached to atually hurt the dragon. The dragon starts with 100 temporary hitpoints (designer note: in the stat block, the dragon's AC also starts 5 higher than current). While the dragon has temporary hitpoints, they are immune from any effect or condition, and possess fortitude (see below).

Once the temporary hitpoints are dropped to 0, any remaining damage from the effect is lost. The dragon's AC drops by 5, it loses fortitude, and it cannot regain any temporary hitpoints until it has a long rest.

Fortitude
When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail. The dragon is immune from the Magic Missile spell.
 

dave2008

Legend
Hey @dave2008 I had this idea for Zargon I posted in the other thread, but thought its an interesting idea for maybe some dragons or other super armored tough creatures, so posting a version of it here in case you are interested. (I know you have tried a few mechanics for dragon defenses, but what's one more!)

Invulnerable Scales
The ancient dragon's scales are near impervious to weapon or spell, and have to be targetted and breached to atually hurt the dragon. The dragon starts with 100 temporary hitpoints (designer note: in the stat block, the dragon's AC also starts 5 higher than current). While the dragon has temporary hitpoints, they are immune from any effect or condition, and possess fortitude (see below).

Once the temporary hitpoints are dropped to 0, any remaining damage from the effect is lost. The dragon's AC drops by 5, it loses fortitude, and it cannot regain any temporary hitpoints until it has a long rest.

Fortitude
When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail. The dragon is immune from the Magic Missile spell.
That is a good idea, I will definitely think about it. I've been trying to streamline my dragons from the overly complex ones on most of my posts here. I think this idea gets to the heart of the issue in a simple, effective, and thematic way. It takes many abilities and simplifies them into one. Nice work!

EDIT: Maybe by first dragon by level will include something like this!
 

dave2008

Legend
Hey @dave2008 I had this idea for Zargon I posted in the other thread, but thought its an interesting idea for maybe some dragons or other super armored tough creatures, so posting a version of it here in case you are interested. (I know you have tried a few mechanics for dragon defenses, but what's one more!)

Invulnerable Scales
The ancient dragon's scales are near impervious to weapon or spell, and have to be targetted and breached to atually hurt the dragon. The dragon starts with 100 temporary hitpoints (designer note: in the stat block, the dragon's AC also starts 5 higher than current). While the dragon has temporary hitpoints, they are immune from any effect or condition, and possess fortitude (see below).

Once the temporary hitpoints are dropped to 0, any remaining damage from the effect is lost. The dragon's AC drops by 5, it loses fortitude, and it cannot regain any temporary hitpoints until it has a long rest.

Fortitude
When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail. The dragon is immune from the Magic Missile spell.
OK, I know this isn't quite what you were looking for, but I had to take your idea and push it a bit. Let me know what you think of this revised Ancient Red:

AncientRedDragon_Redux2.jpg
 
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Stalker0

Legend
OK, I know this isn't quite what you were looking for, but I had to take your idea and push it a bit. Let me know what you think of this revised Ancient Red:

View attachment 370877
I think this is a good version of the mechanic, might even be too strong (you have to chew through 468 hitpoints effectively since its all half damage....and with a 27 AC)

One side note, you have heat metal under your spellcasting action (which is normally a bonus action). Is the intention that its an action when they use that mechanic? If yes its confusing, if no..... its breaks your action economy a bit as there is no reason for a dragon not to use it every round to boost up their damage.
 

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