Honestly, I don't really see what the problem of a front-loaded Cleric is. So it's enticing for someone to multiclass into Cleric. What's the downside? Cleric is a support class, how can more Cleric in a party be bad?
D&D (2024) 5e vs Oe Cleric...
- Thread starter Steampunkette
- Start date
It's bad design if the design of one class doesn't match the others nor the rest the game.
The cleric isn't a support class. It CAN be a support class. It's good at being a support class. But it can be other things too
And like I said before, it actively make a worse cleric by either front loading it or nerfing everything the cleric gets early.
The 5e cleric got Spellcasting, Divine Domain at level 1. This overloaded level 1. Many of the stuff you got at level 1 from Domain was weak as a result due to being forced to create something in that power and complexity budget. They were Holy Order strength or weaker and basically Holy orders.
Reaper + Bonus Prof: Nerfed Thaumaturge or Nerfed Protector
Disciple of Life + Bonus Cantrip: Nerfed Thaumaturge
Blessed of Knowledge: Nerf Scholar
Warding Flare + Bonus Cantrip: Nerfed Thaumaturge
Acolyte of Nature + Bonus Pref: Nerfed Protector
Wrath of the Storm + Bonus Prof: Okay this is good.
Blessings of the Trickster: lulz
War Priest + Bonus Prof: Buffed Protector
Really all many are asking for is to swap Holy Order and Channel Divinity. Poor trade if you ask me.
Chaosmancer
Legend
I'm honestly still not sure what the problem here is. Yes, level 1 and level 2 clerics are not immediately unique. Neither have level 1 Paladins or level 1 bards or level 1 Rangers.
And actually, this version of the cleric does a really really good thing with the channel divinity. Yes, it is generic but it is
1) Actually channeling divine power in a meaningful way, not just casting spells like everyone else
2) Gives you a choice between healing or attacking at level 1
The only potential problem comes from a hiccup in the lore where there is no difference between evil and good gods, but that's a problem for the entire game, not just this design. And even then, every god should give you the ability to heal those they care about (whether that is just you, or your allies) and harm their foes. And this does that.
Mechanical differences mean special powers, and I am fine with you needing to be an actual notable adventurer instead of random acolyte still being trained number 7 to get special powers from your deity. Honestly, how many people have felt like the NPC clerics like the Claws of Luthic or the Cult Fanatics weren't accurately depicting clerics because they don't get special powers. They just get the spells, and that's it
And this design choice actually can lead to an interesting feeling of progression. Level 1, you are just an acolyte channeling the raw power of your faith. Level 2, you have picked how you wish to serve your diety, level 3, your diety has recognized you with unique powers. That's a good progression
I get that there is that awkward transition from level 1 to level 2 mechanically, where you can't buy the "proper" gear in character creation, but for most games that won't be too difficult.
And actually, this version of the cleric does a really really good thing with the channel divinity. Yes, it is generic but it is
1) Actually channeling divine power in a meaningful way, not just casting spells like everyone else
2) Gives you a choice between healing or attacking at level 1
The only potential problem comes from a hiccup in the lore where there is no difference between evil and good gods, but that's a problem for the entire game, not just this design. And even then, every god should give you the ability to heal those they care about (whether that is just you, or your allies) and harm their foes. And this does that.
Mechanical differences mean special powers, and I am fine with you needing to be an actual notable adventurer instead of random acolyte still being trained number 7 to get special powers from your deity. Honestly, how many people have felt like the NPC clerics like the Claws of Luthic or the Cult Fanatics weren't accurately depicting clerics because they don't get special powers. They just get the spells, and that's it
And this design choice actually can lead to an interesting feeling of progression. Level 1, you are just an acolyte channeling the raw power of your faith. Level 2, you have picked how you wish to serve your diety, level 3, your diety has recognized you with unique powers. That's a good progression
I get that there is that awkward transition from level 1 to level 2 mechanically, where you can't buy the "proper" gear in character creation, but for most games that won't be too difficult.
Lycurgon
Adventurer
I played in a play test game where 4 players were all playing Clerics from 1 level to 3rd level.
We found that the channel divinity attack was very powerful at these levels. The Holy Orders were good but getting them at 2nd level was bad for those wanting to take the warrior option and get Heavy Armour and Martial Weapons. Starting with Medium Armour and simple weapons for 1 level and then having to try sourcing upgrades wasn't great. The other 2 options were find to get at level 2.
Then you get only a minor ability at 3rd level from your domain. The Domain specific Channel Divinity not kicking in until 6th level makes the Cleric rather boringly similar.
Clerics are now not differentiated enough in my opinion. In the 5e version Clerics felt different from level 1 and often let to playing them in different ways.
With the 1D&D versions we had 2 that took the warrior order and 1 on each one the other Holy Orders. While this meant that 2 of us were primarily being the front line and w were being the back line, the differences didn't feel very big. Even the front liners were blasting with their Channel Divinity attacks as much as the back line.
Even at 3rd level with different domains there was little to distinguish between Clerics. With some of the power of Domains being removed and given to the Holy Order there is not as much difference with 3rd level Clerics as the previous version.
The Domain specific Channel Divinity does a lot to make the Clerics feel and play different from each other, so waiting until 6th for it is just too long of a wait.
While I like that subclasses are gained at the same level across all classes, personally I'd prefer that all classes got them at first level. It doesn't have to be a big set of powers at first just something to help flavour and differentiate different subclasses from each other.
In conclusion, the playtest version of the Cleric is a step in the boring direction. But then, I think a lot of the things they are do make for a more boring game - standardised the spell lists, and making everyone prepared casters helps the designers but, doesn't make the game more interesting to play.
We found that the channel divinity attack was very powerful at these levels. The Holy Orders were good but getting them at 2nd level was bad for those wanting to take the warrior option and get Heavy Armour and Martial Weapons. Starting with Medium Armour and simple weapons for 1 level and then having to try sourcing upgrades wasn't great. The other 2 options were find to get at level 2.
Then you get only a minor ability at 3rd level from your domain. The Domain specific Channel Divinity not kicking in until 6th level makes the Cleric rather boringly similar.
Clerics are now not differentiated enough in my opinion. In the 5e version Clerics felt different from level 1 and often let to playing them in different ways.
With the 1D&D versions we had 2 that took the warrior order and 1 on each one the other Holy Orders. While this meant that 2 of us were primarily being the front line and w were being the back line, the differences didn't feel very big. Even the front liners were blasting with their Channel Divinity attacks as much as the back line.
Even at 3rd level with different domains there was little to distinguish between Clerics. With some of the power of Domains being removed and given to the Holy Order there is not as much difference with 3rd level Clerics as the previous version.
The Domain specific Channel Divinity does a lot to make the Clerics feel and play different from each other, so waiting until 6th for it is just too long of a wait.
While I like that subclasses are gained at the same level across all classes, personally I'd prefer that all classes got them at first level. It doesn't have to be a big set of powers at first just something to help flavour and differentiate different subclasses from each other.
In conclusion, the playtest version of the Cleric is a step in the boring direction. But then, I think a lot of the things they are do make for a more boring game - standardised the spell lists, and making everyone prepared casters helps the designers but, doesn't make the game more interesting to play.
Domains need to be redesigned.
The ODnD Life domain is a 5e Life domain feature. The 5e Domains were designed to share a level with Spellcasting.
With it's own level, it should be buffed.
Atomoctba
Adventurer
I agree. By the end, some specialities were very better than any other class to play. But yes, each god had its own priest class to play, that felt different one of another. Forgotten got at least three books to describe just specialist priest, such as Faiths and Avatars. This one is of Selune, this one is for Tempus, etc.
Some of most popular specialities were reformulated as prestige classes on 3e. Then, in 4e and 5e, came the "pausteurization" era. While I like both these last editions, I always get the impression all is more of the same.
Remathilis
Legend
But deity =/= domain. You can have a war cleric of Gruumsh and a war cleric of Moradin at level 1 and they are still functionally identical. It's not like picking Moradin or Gruumsh gives you extra proficiencies, spells or powers. And suggested domains are in fact suggestions, you are not obligated to pick a domain listed next to your deities name (and in some books, there is no suggestion).
If it helps, consider a domain to be a "greater revelation" granted by your deity when you show you are competent and devoted. Your deity grants you insight into some greater cosmic force (life, nature, knowledge, war) and you begin to harness it. There are divine spellcasters who never get this revelation (NPC divine casters like the Priest) but PCs Are Special.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
I still think holy order at level 1 would help a lot. Also armor training should be overhauled in general. Or maybe every class should get one first level feature you can never access by multiclassing. Some background ability.
Holy order for the cleric,
maybe some tribal feature for the barbarian,
Some combat training for the fighter (which also grants heavy armor proficiency), and so on...
Would really help all classes.
Holy order for the cleric,
maybe some tribal feature for the barbarian,
Some combat training for the fighter (which also grants heavy armor proficiency), and so on...
Would really help all classes.
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I was honestly so confused. Oe clerics are OD&D 1974 clerics. That designation is taken. You can't reuse it for something else, you'll just degrade communication. I got it from the context and forum but...it can't be Oe. And your post is long so it's not like you were trying to save characters or anything
Don't try and make Oe a thing - it's like Fetch. You can't make it a thing.
I thought 1974 D&D was 0e and this 2024 right now is Oe?I was honestly so confused. Oe clerics are OD&D 1974 clerics. That designation is taken. You can't reuse it for something else, you'll just degrade communication. I got it from the context and forum but...it can't be Oe. And your post is long so it's not like you were trying to save characters or anything
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