D&D 5E 5th Edition has broken Bounded Accuracy

[KarinsDad]

Depends on the dragon. I don't expect the average adult to have a Bond villain lair. Dragons typically aren't architects, so they have to work with what's on hand. That might mean that their lair isn't perfect. Last I checked, dragons don't have a "find perfect master villain lair" power.

Same with henchmen. Sure it might have spies to warn it of encroaching PCs. And out in the boonies where this dragon is probably dwelling, it probably has access to orcs and the like. In other words, sufficiently capable, but not entirely dependable. Traps are likely if the dragon is able to force some kobolds into its service, but that depends on whether kobolds are local to that area.



I would hope that if the PCs are going after a dragon that they do their research. Learn as much as they can from those who've come before them. Maybe even find out as much as possible about that specific dragon if they can.

If they just decide on a whim to go a-dragon-huntin' then best of luck to them.



If the dragon is fortunate enough to have a hidden chamber to sleep in, then the treasure would indeed likely be there. I still hold that smart / lucky PCs are likely to encounter the dragon there however. Dragons are lazy creatures that love cuddling their treasure. Being smart doesn't make you flawless. As such, PCs hunting that dragon are most likely to encounter the dragon where it spends most of its time.

Which is why I prefaced my statements there with the dragon killing plans online here making assumptions about how DMs run dragons.

To me, the game is Dungeons and DRAGONS. Dragons are a very big integral part of my game (dungeons are as well), and in fact, the average adult or older dragon in my game does have a Bond villain lair. They've survived this long for a reason. Yes, younger dragons are tough, but if they make too much of a nuisance of themselves, there are always adventurous bounty hunter types to take them out. The adults are the ones that grew past that phase and realized that yes, humans, elves, dwarves, spell casters, etc. are dangerous, and unlike Smaug, the majority of my dragons take precautions. Serious precautions. The majority of my dragons also are the spell casting types since those are the ones most likely to survive younger age.

Other DMs do not run their dragons this way.

 

[aramis erak]

The playstyle that [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION] describes doesn't seem that unique to me. I think there's a long tradition, within the overall range of D&D play, of treating the game as a challenge, and of looking for rational tactical strategies within the parameters that the rules set for such a challenge. And even within this thread, we've seen more than one other poster (and I'm not including myself) taking an approach that's similar even if not identical.

I, too, have experience in "D&D as dungeon penetration minis wargame"... It's part of my default D&D style, in fact. Not the sum total, but a part.

 

[pemerton]

I, too, have experience in "D&D as dungeon penetration minis wargame"... It's part of my default D&D style, in fact. Not the sum total, but a part.

To me, the key difference between D&D played this way and a wargame (or, at least, a boardgame-y wargame) is that in D&D the fiction matters to resolution, whereas in a wargame (or, at least, a boardgame-y one) the fiction has no relevance to resolution - it's all been codified into rules.

That's part of why this wargame-y style of play is located solidly within the category of roleplaying games, even though it may not be to every RPGer's taste.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

To me, the key difference between D&D played this way and a wargame (or, at least, a boardgame-y wargame) is that in D&D the fiction matters to resolution, whereas in a wargame (or, at least, a boardgame-y one) the fiction has no relevance to resolution - it's all been codified into rules.

That's part of why this wargame-y style of play is located solidly within the category of roleplaying games, even though it may not be to every RPGer's taste.

Agreed. Earlier in this thread we discussed exploiting a dragon's psychological weaknesses like arrogance and love of treasure; in a wargame it would be inappropriate to play a dragon anything but optimally, but in an RPG it would be inappropriate to play the dragon optimally if the players were exploiting those flaws. In 5E, you can potentially bait a dragon into following you into a constricted space like a 10' tunnel by e.g. stealing treasure and hiding in the tunnel. In a wargame that shouldn't work.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Even one century is a long time to live. A dragon competes primarily against intelligent humanoids and monsters like aboleth. They don't compete against animals that can't challenge them. Choosing a lair not easily accessible by intelligent humanoids or monsters with magical power would be important to its survival. If its enemies can march an army into its lair easily (or skeletons and owls), then that is a dragon not looking to live long. A dragon that wanted to live would seek a lair specifically to halt intelligent humanoids and monsters. It would not care about wandering animals or unintelligent monsters it consumes for food. They are no danger.

Dragons lazy? Sort of. They don't work all the time like humans in human society. But by animal standards? Not likely. They have been competing and fighting against intelligent humanoids and monsters for land, treasure, and survival for generations of dragons, meaning literally thousands of years, if not longer. Choice if lair to stop their primary enemies would be amongst the most important choices a dragon will make.

Who else comes after their hoard? The local wolf pack? Nope. Adventurers that are usually intelligent humanoids. If your dragon isn't choosing as dangerous a lair as possible to intelligent humanoids and monsters other than itself, that is a lazy dragon that probably won't live long.

There's a vast difference between a dangerous lair and a perfect lair (the aforementioned black dragon lair containing 4 separate chambers hidden underwater would fall under the latter IMO). There are only so many lairs to go around. Of those, the best are likely to already be occupied (potentially by ancient dragons). As such, I don't think it's realistic for every (or even most) adult dragons to have super-villain lairs.

It's kind of like buying a house. Maybe you had your heart set on a good school district, near a train station, 2.5 baths, and within your price range. Well, you probably had to compromise somewhere so maybe you have to settle for 1.5 baths to keep things in your price range and within other parameters. Maybe you're also further from the train station than you'd prefer. There were probably houses that would have met all your criteria, within your price range, they just weren't for sale when you were buying.

So that adult red dragon might have a volcano lair somewhere, but maybe he wasn't able to find one with a secret chamber where the only access is via a tunnel of molten rock. Maybe he's a bit short-staffed because there aren't too many intelligent humanoids who want to live near an active volcano.

Dragons are known for their vices, particularly chromatics. An adult dragon living in a remote area probably has to deal with real threats quite rarely. As such, portraying them as hyper-paranoid just seems off to me. Assuming you live in a fairly peaceful neighborhood, do you and your neighbors regularly patrol your lawns because a criminal COULD try to break in? Odds are you have better things to do, even if it's just getting an extra 30 minutes of sleep in the morning. Dragons are arrogant. There aren't many things that want to try to go after an adult dragon, and a dragon knows that.

I don't find it unlikely at all that a dragon that's known a century of relative peace and quiet could be caught resting on its hoard when adventurers finally do come calling.

 

[Celtavian]

There's a vast difference between a dangerous lair and a perfect lair (the aforementioned black dragon lair containing 4 separate chambers hidden underwater would fall under the latter IMO). There are only so many lairs to go around. Of those, the best are likely to already be occupied (potentially by ancient dragons). As such, I don't think it's realistic for every (or even most) adult dragons to have super-villain lairs.

It's kind of like buying a house. Maybe you had your heart set on a good school district, near a train station, 2.5 baths, and within your price range. Well, you probably had to compromise somewhere so maybe you have to settle for 1.5 baths to keep things in your price range and within other parameters. Maybe you're also further from the train station than you'd prefer. There were probably houses that would have met all your criteria, within your price range, they just weren't for sale when you were buying.

So that adult red dragon might have a volcano lair somewhere, but maybe he wasn't able to find one with a secret chamber where the only access is via a tunnel of molten rock. Maybe he's a bit short-staffed because there aren't too many intelligent humanoids who want to live near an active volcano.

Dragons are known for their vices, particularly chromatics. An adult dragon living in a remote area probably has to deal with real threats quite rarely. As such, portraying them as hyper-paranoid just seems off to me. Assuming you live in a fairly peaceful neighborhood, do you and your neighbors regularly patrol your lawns because a criminal COULD try to break in? Odds are you have better things to do, even if it's just getting an extra 30 minutes of sleep in the morning. Dragons are arrogant. There aren't many things that want to try to go after an adult dragon, and a dragon knows that.

I don't find it unlikely at all that a dragon that's known a century of relative peace and quiet could be caught resting on its hoard when adventurers finally do come calling.

Something doesn't need to be a super villain lair. Hard to reach as in not easy to march skeleton archers and owls into. Accessibility is the first defense of a dragon's lair.

Dragon's are fairly paranoid about their lair. I think it would take ample means to ensure its hoard was protected.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Something doesn't need to be a super villain lair. Hard to reach as in not easy to march skeleton archers and owls into. Accessibility is the first defense of a dragon's lair.

Dragon's are fairly paranoid about their lair. I think it would take ample means to ensure its hoard was protected.

If it's easy for a red dragon to reach, it's easy for a giant owl. Convenience and security are tradeoffs.

 

[sithramir]

The fact that people are debating owls fighting dragons now is hilarious to me.

 

[DaveDash]

If it's easy for a red dragon to reach, it's easy for a giant owl. Convenience and security are tradeoffs.

If I was an Adult Red Dragon my lair would be close to or inside a magma pit at the base of a volcano. I would have used Efreeti slaves (probably by giving a high level caster a favour) to forge a protective treasure room off to one side so as not to be destroyed by the magma every time the volcano erupts. To actually reach the inner core of my lair, you'd have no choice but to fly over swim through magma.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The fact that people are debating owls fighting dragons now is hilarious to me.

No, we aren't.