D&D 5E 5th Edition has broken Bounded Accuracy

[Fanaelialae]

We'll just agree to disagree. This is all a fluff discussion, so there's no right or wrong answer, but I would never run Dragons like you do. It just strains the logic of natural selection to me.

Likewise, and fair enough.

 

[Psikerlord#]

He also has the option of just eating an opportunity attack to not be at disadvantage. If he's faster than the melee attacker that's an "I win" button for the ranged guy--one reason why Mobile is a great feat and Longstrider is a great spell, and dwarves are lame. IMHO.

True enough - the kiting issue and static movement rates is a longstanding bug in DnD.... Better off with "engaged", "close" and "far" from 13th Age imo. Or at least put the Charge action back in (not have it as a feat like it is). I suppose if you really are melee specialized, you want the sentinel feat, to trap ranged enemies once you reach them.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

True enough - the kiting issue and static movement rates is a longstanding bug in DnD.... Better off with "engaged", "close" and "far" from 13th Age imo. Or at least put the Charge action back in (not have it as a feat like it is). I suppose if you really are melee specialized, you want the sentinel feat, to trap ranged enemies once you reach them.

The kiting issue isn't quite as bad under speed factor initiative because the melee guy could get his attacks off before the ranged guy retreats. I.e. it's not so easy to game initiative. The tactic still works, it's just not as reliable or stupidly lopsided.

 

[Bacon Bits]

If anyone would have a Bond villain lair, it would be n Adult Dragon.

Really? I always pegged Bond villain lairs as a Rakshasa thing. They have the regal bearing, sense of style, and barely contained malevolence necessary.

Also, their hands are on backwards, so they have an obviously distinguishing mark or physical deformity.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Really? I always pegged Bond villain lairs as a Rakshasa thing. They have the regal bearing, sense of style, and barely contained malevolence necessary.

Also, their hands are on backwards, so they have an obviously distinguishing mark or physical deformity.

Whereas my go to D&D Bond villain would be a Lich. As fully leveled casters they have a lot of options for creating customized and crazy lairs.

Rakshasa is a good one too though.

 

[Celtavian]

Sure. This isn't even an unusual setup for this party, except that during peacetime Vlad only keeps four to ten skellies onhand, and often leaves them at home during the day. But he's a necromancer, of course he stockpiles bones and armor, just as a noble stockpiles crossbows and a fighter stockpiles wyvern venom.

The point I was making in that post is that vanilla dragons are so laughably weak that even a midlevel party's go-to tactics will destroy it with minimal losses if it engages in any area larger than a traffic intersection. 150' x 50' isn't very big after all--the cafeteria at work is 150' by 150'. If the dragon cannot win an open field battle, he is forced onto the defensive and you use similar tactics to offensively strafe him to death. You can heal and he can't, nor does he regain legendary resistance between strafing runs. Someone who can't do offense effectively will always lose strategically unless their defense is so crushing that they interdict all intruders with perfection. A vanilla dragon can manage that against 3rd level characters, not against 11th. Therefore I make my dragons tough enough that the boring old straightforward go-to strategy becomes uncertain of success. Sorcerer levels do that for me, although I also like the idea of increasing their movement rate on the second round of flight in the same direction.

I usually overcame the shortcomings with a stack of hit points. I'll probably boost dragon hit points in 5E as well and maybe give them some damage resistance against all physical attacks from creatures larges and smaller. I do not like the idea of dragons having to run. They are big, brutal creatures that should make parties run. They should be able to land in the middle of a party of PCs, fight them all at the same time, and still frighten them without spells. Once I get 5E down, I will as Picard says, "Make it so." I have never liked premade monsters of the large, brutish kind in any edition of D&D. they do not serve their intended purpose dying too easily and quickly to a group of adventurers. I have never understood why they continue to design them to die without being the threat they should be. I always adjust until they are the threat they are supposed to be, fighting in the manner they are supposed to fight in.

I do like the free form monster design of 5E. Suits what I like to do perfectly. I'll make sure monsters are built to last against the tactics you plan to use without having to give them spells where they could fly in kill the owls, kill the skeletons, all while under assault from the PCs and still land with a mess of hit points to do battle for several rounds. PCs will not be taking them on alone. A dragon fight even without spells will take every trick a party can muster and then some to win by the time I'm done building the dragon without it having to bother with mobility. PCs run from dragons, dragons don't run from PCs. If that is happening, the dragon was built too weak as they usually are in these games.

 

[Celtavian]

Ranged combat only rules if you cant reach the shooter. And if you cant reach the shooter, you were f*cked in any edition of DnD (or any other RPG game). If you can reach the shooter you win, because the shooter is then at disad (not including crossbow expert feat, which incidentally we amended removing the bit about removing disad in melee shooting, because OP).

And melee martials had magic items to overcome this disadvantage. It didn't take many spell resources to get a melee martial to the combat. No concentration meant putting fly on a melee martial so he could engage was no big deal. Or dimension door the PC on the target. He usually had his boots of flying or a potion on hand to get there himself. Melee martials didn't like being kept out of the fight.

 

[bgbarcus]

I usually overcame the shortcomings with a stack of hit points. .

Considering the damage output of 5e characters there may not be a big enough stack of hit points to slow them down. I have been tempted to scrap the recharge in breath weapons and go back to my old style of 3x max HP power day but never more that 1x max HP in one shot. That let dragons meter their breaths to wipe out small things with a little puff and save the big damage for adventurers.

 

[Celtavian]

Even one century is a long time to live. A dragon competes primarily against intelligent humanoids and monsters like aboleth. They don't compete against animals that can't challenge them. Choosing a lair not easily accessible by intelligent humanoids or monsters with magical power would be important to its survival. If its enemies can march an army into its lair easily (or skeletons and owls), then that is a dragon not looking to live long. A dragon that wanted to live would seek a lair specifically to halt intelligent humanoids and monsters. It would not care about wandering animals or unintelligent monsters it consumes for food. They are no danger.

Dragons lazy? Sort of. They don't work all the time like humans in human society. But by animal standards? Not likely. They have been competing and fighting against intelligent humanoids and monsters for land, treasure, and survival for generations of dragons, meaning literally thousands of years, if not longer. Choice if lair to stop their primary enemies would be amongst the most important choices a dragon will make.

Who else comes after their hoard? The local wolf pack? Nope. Adventurers that are usually intelligent humanoids. If your dragon isn't choosing as dangerous a lair as possible to intelligent humanoids and monsters other than itself, that is a lazy dragon that probably won't live long.

 

[Celtavian]

Considering the damage output of 5e characters there may not be a big enough stack of hit points to slow them down. I have been tempted to scrap the recharge in breath weapons and go back to my old style of 3x max HP power day but never more that 1x max HP in one shot. That let dragons meter their breaths to wipe out small things with a little puff and save the big damage for adventurers.

I gave dragons around a 1000 hit points in 3E. I had to up this due to crits. I gave one creature 5,000 hit points. It was an ancient gate guardian.

5E damage output isn't as high as 3E. I probably won't go to 5000. I'll probably triple or quadruple base dragon hit points along with DR based on size rather than magic or non-magic.