D&D 5E 5th Edition has broken Bounded Accuracy

[DaveDash]

Sure. This isn't even an unusual setup for this party, except that during peacetime Vlad only keeps four to ten skellies onhand, and often leaves them at home during the day. But he's a necromancer, of course he stockpiles bones and armor, just as a noble stockpiles crossbows and a fighter stockpiles wyvern venom.

The point I was making in that post is that vanilla dragons are so laughably weak that even a midlevel party's go-to tactics will destroy it with minimal losses if it engages in any area larger than a traffic intersection. 150' x 50' isn't very big after all--the cafeteria at work is 150' by 150'. If the dragon cannot win an open field battle, he is forced onto the defensive and you use similar tactics to offensively strafe him to death. You can heal and he can't, nor does he regain legendary resistance between strafing runs. Someone who can't do offense effectively will always lose strategically unless their defense is so crushing that they interdict all intruders with perfection. A vanilla dragon can manage that against 3rd level characters, not against 11th. Therefore I make my dragons tough enough that the boring old straightforward go-to strategy becomes uncertain of success. Sorcerer levels do that for me, although I also like the idea of increasing their movement rate on the second round of flight in the same direction.

What you're describing is a side effect of bounded accuracy. A dragon is a harder opponent than a high CR melee fighter, who is also laughably weak against anything ranged.

I've turned a level 17 Fighter into a pin cushion with skeletons as well, forcing him to retreat. Welcome to bounded accuracy where ACs are capped and ranged combat rules.

 

[Psikerlord#]

What you're describing is a side effect of bounded accuracy. A dragon is a harder opponent than a high CR melee fighter, who is also laughably weak against anything ranged.

I've turned a level 17 Fighter into a pin cushion with skeletons as well, forcing him to retreat. Welcome to bounded accuracy where ACs are capped and ranged combat rules.

Ranged combat only rules if you cant reach the shooter. And if you cant reach the shooter, you were f*cked in any edition of DnD (or any other RPG game). If you can reach the shooter you win, because the shooter is then at disad (not including crossbow expert feat, which incidentally we amended removing the bit about removing disad in melee shooting, because OP).

 

[DaveDash]

Ranged combat only rules if you cant reach the shooter. And if you cant reach the shooter, you were f*cked in any edition of DnD (or any other RPG game). If you can reach the shooter you win, because the shooter is then at disad (not including crossbow expert feat, which incidentally we amended removing the bit about removing disad in melee shooting, because OP).

Not really. Other editions of D&D high level characters were impervious to low level creatures. Not so in 5e.

In my example the fighter COULD reach the skeletons, but he had to cross a bit of ground to reach them. 18 AC vs skeletons shooting at him did about 80 damage. Then they were dispersed so kept firing upon him even when he engaged one at a time. The Cleric had to waste a heal spell on him against CR1/4 creatures. And yeah, he was throwing handaxes like crazy including.

No one else in that fight took any appreciable damage - the skeletons were also firing at them too. The Wizard fireballed a group, the Sharpshooter archer just ripped through a ton, the cleric turned a few, but ol Henry Handaxe got chewed up, was a burden on party resources, and didn't effect the fight in any appreciable manner.

Now this is a feature of 5e, not a bug. But it's worth noting that unless you're fighting in nothing but small dungeon passageways and rooms, bounded accuracy means that ranged rules and melee will struggle.

Totally agreed on crossbow expert.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I find these "prepare to kill a dragon" ideas make a lot of assumptions about how a DM runs dragons. What adult or older dragon in its right mind doesn't have henchmen, spies, guardians, traps, difficult to find entrances, multiple chambers, (and in my game, all dragons have spells), etc., etc., etc.?

Depends on the dragon. I don't expect the average adult to have a Bond villain lair. Dragons typically aren't architects, so they have to work with what's on hand. That might mean that their lair isn't perfect. Last I checked, dragons don't have a "find perfect master villain lair" power.

Same with henchmen. Sure it might have spies to warn it of encroaching PCs. And out in the boonies where this dragon is probably dwelling, it probably has access to orcs and the like. In other words, sufficiently capable, but not entirely dependable. Traps are likely if the dragon is able to force some kobolds into its service, but that depends on whether kobolds are local to that area.

How is it that the PCs can get anywhere near the dragon without it knowing that they are in its territory?


How do the PCs know the range of the Dragon's blindsight, darkvision, etc. in order to make such detailed plans?


How many legendary dragons have the PCs faced before in order to know so much about them and have such good plans?

I would hope that if the PCs are going after a dragon that they do their research. Learn as much as they can from those who've come before them. Maybe even find out as much as possible about that specific dragon if they can.

If they just decide on a whim to go a-dragon-huntin' then best of luck to them.

How come the dragon doesn't have its valuables hidden and protected? Where do these plans of "I'll steal a valuable item from the Dragon hoard" come from? They don't make sense for an Int 14 to 20 Dragon.

If the dragon is fortunate enough to have a hidden chamber to sleep in, then the treasure would indeed likely be there. I still hold that smart / lucky PCs are likely to encounter the dragon there however. Dragons are lazy creatures that love cuddling their treasure. Being smart doesn't make you flawless. As such, PCs hunting that dragon are most likely to encounter the dragon where it spends most of its time.

 

[DaveDash]

Depends on the dragon. I don't expect the average adult to have a Bond villain lair. Dragons typically aren't architects, so they have to work with what's on hand. That might mean that their lair isn't perfect. Last I checked, dragons don't have a "find perfect master villain lair" power.

Same with henchmen. Sure it might have spies to warn it of encroaching PCs. And out in the boonies where this dragon is probably dwelling, it probably has access to orcs and the like. In other words, sufficiently capable, but not entirely dependable. Traps are likely if the dragon is able to force some kobolds into its service, but that depends on whether kobolds are local to that area.



I would hope that if the PCs are going after a dragon that they do their research. Learn as much as they can from those who've come before them. Maybe even find out as much as possible about that specific dragon if they can.

If they just decide on a whim to go a-dragon-huntin' then best of luck to them.



If the dragon is fortunate enough to have a hidden chamber to sleep in, then the treasure would indeed likely be there. I still hold that smart / lucky PCs are likely to encounter the dragon there however. Dragons are lazy creatures that love cuddling their treasure. Being smart doesn't make you flawless. As such, PCs hunting that dragon are most likely to encounter the dragon where it spends most of its time.

Older dragons have lived for thousands of years, they've had plenty of time to pick a good spot, and by the same logic that they are incredibly protective of their lair also means they'd have it in a very difficult to reach spot.

It doesn't have to be filled with traps, but most Dragons would have eyes and ears (in fact most Dragons I've read in cannon modules usually have minions that worship them).
At the very least they'd have a spot that would be very hard to reach under normal circumstances, as they're not stupid and realise that their lair is a huge adventure magnet.

I doubt where they actually have piles of treasure is where they would choose to engage adventurers, especially given there's more than likely no escape for them from that point.

There's also no guarantee the characters know they're about to fight a Dragon. My group stumbled upon a Shadow Dragon in the underdark. I gave them the opportunity to flee but they foolishly decided to attack. It would be absurd for the Dragon to retreat back into the cave where its actual treasure was, as opposed to fighting them out on the cliff face where it has a natural advantage. From there it can stay mobile and keep a close eye on the mouth of its cave where its treasure was.

It did retreat back there when injured and the party gave chase, and there it fought like an enraged wounded animal. In the end it came down to luck of the dice and the party won.

If it sat back in its lair the whole time it would have been a much easier fight for the players. Dragons are apex predators and would never hand the initiative to a group of invaders like that. I'd argue they wouldn't make it to old age if they were that foolish.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

If you can reach the shooter you win, because the shooter is then at disad (not including crossbow expert feat, which incidentally we amended removing the bit about removing disad in melee shooting, because OP).

He also has the option of just eating an opportunity attack to not be at disadvantage. If he's faster than the melee attacker that's an "I win" button for the ranged guy--one reason why Mobile is a great feat and Longstrider is a great spell, and dwarves are lame. IMHO.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Older dragons have lived for thousands of years, they've had plenty of time to pick a good spot, and by the same logic that they are incredibly protective of their lair also means they'd have it in a very difficult to reach spot.

I said adult, not ancient. An adult dragon has been around for 1 to 8 centuries. And in that time, even if it did find a good spot, there's no guarantee that it wasn't forced out by meddling adventurers, behirs, giants, or other dragons. I'd expect an adult dragon to have a decent lair, but typically with room for improvement.

It doesn't have to be filled with traps, but most Dragons would have eyes and ears (in fact most Dragons I've read in cannon modules usually have minions that worship them).
At the very least they'd have a spot that would be very hard to reach under normal circumstances, as they're not stupid and realise that their lair is a huge adventure magnet.

I said they'd have minions. I simply stated that they'd be limited by what was at hand. If a dragon's very lucky, he might have a cult of dragon worshiping mages. If he's not, he might have to make do with kobolds or goblins.

I doubt where they actually have piles of treasure is where they would choose to engage adventurers, especially given there's more than likely no escape for them from that point.

That assumes that they've been warned that adventurers are coming. Even with spies, if the PCs are effective, word may never reach the dragon. And presumably adventurers showing up on the dragon's doorstep isn't a daily occurrence. In my campaigns, it might happen once a century. A dragon is not going to be spending a typical day on red alert. It's going to be lazing about on its horde.

There's also no guarantee the characters know they're about to fight a Dragon. My group stumbled upon a Shadow Dragon in the underdark. I gave them the opportunity to flee but they foolishly decided to attack. It would be absurd for the Dragon to retreat back into the cave where its actual treasure was, as opposed to fighting them out on the cliff face where it has a natural advantage. From there it can stay mobile and keep a close eye on the mouth of its cave where its treasure was.

If you're not prepared to fight a dragon then either retreat or hope the DM was feeling merciful when he designed the encounter. That or the DM is tired of the campaign and wants a TPK so he can start fresh.

It did retreat back there when injured and the party gave chase, and there it fought like an enraged wounded animal. In the end it came down to luck of the dice and the party won.

If it sat back in its lair the whole time it would have been a much easier fight for the players. Dragons are apex predators and would never hand the initiative to a group of invaders like that. I'd argue they wouldn't make it to old age if they were that foolish.

They're lazy apex predators. If they know you're coming you're in trouble. But if they don't, then odds are you'll find them with their treasure. Dragons aren't misers who bury their gold. They use it for a bed. They're not omniscient and they are lazy. Which means you can take them when they aren't ready for you.

 

[Parmandur]

If anyone would have a Bond villain lair, it would be n Adult Dragon.

 

[DaveDash]

I said adult, not ancient. An adult dragon has been around for 1 to 8 centuries. And in that time, even if it did find a good spot, there's no guarantee that it wasn't forced out by meddling adventurers, behirs, giants, or other dragons. I'd expect an adult dragon to have a decent lair, but typically with room for improvement.



I said they'd have minions. I simply stated that they'd be limited by what was at hand. If a dragon's very lucky, he might have a cult of dragon worshiping mages. If he's not, he might have to make do with kobolds or goblins.



That assumes that they've been warned that adventurers are coming. Even with spies, if the PCs are effective, word may never reach the dragon. And presumably adventurers showing up on the dragon's doorstep isn't a daily occurrence. In my campaigns, it might happen once a century. A dragon is not going to be spending a typical day on red alert. It's going to be lazing about on its horde.



If you're not prepared to fight a dragon then either retreat or hope the DM was feeling merciful when he designed the encounter. That or the DM is tired of the campaign and wants a TPK so he can start fresh.



They're lazy apex predators. If they know you're coming you're in trouble. But if they don't, then odds are you'll find them with their treasure. Dragons aren't misers who bury their gold. They use it for a bed. They're not omniscient and they are lazy. Which means you can take them when they aren't ready for you.

We'll just agree to disagree. This is all a fluff discussion, so there's no right or wrong answer, but I would never run Dragons like you do. It just strains the logic of natural selection to me.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Not really. Other editions of D&D high level characters were impervious to low level creatures. Not so in 5e.

In my example the fighter COULD reach the skeletons, but he had to cross a bit of ground to reach them. 18 AC vs skeletons shooting at him did about 80 damage. Then they were dispersed so kept firing upon him even when he engaged one at a time. The Cleric had to waste a heal spell on him against CR1/4 creatures. And yeah, he was throwing handaxes like crazy including.

No one else in that fight took any appreciable damage - the skeletons were also firing at them too. The Wizard fireballed a group, the Sharpshooter archer just ripped through a ton, the cleric turned a few, but ol Henry Handaxe got chewed up, was a burden on party resources, and didn't effect the fight in any appreciable manner.

Now this is a feature of 5e, not a bug. But it's worth noting that unless you're fighting in nothing but small dungeon passageways and rooms, bounded accuracy means that ranged rules and melee will struggle.

Totally agreed on crossbow expert.

Ah right yeah melee guy surrounded by shooters is in trouble!