D&D 5E 5th Edition Intelligence

[Gimul]

So you're the one with the 20 INT then?

I don't need a 20... I just need to be smarter than you. ;-)

 

[Eric V]

Well no, I'm not in your game. Whether you are smarter than me or not is irrelevant.

For your own game, it matters. If it's true that "[you] give them information or logical insight on a level commiserate with their roll," then that means you know the sum total of what can happen in that particular scenario; YOU would have to have a 20 INT to be able to determine which plans the PCs make correspond to which INT scores.

The problem is you DON'T have an INT score of 20. So what happens now? How do you, average INT score person, know whether a PLAYER's idea is commiserate with her CHARACTER'S choice?

You don't. You're not equipped.

(This isn't even taking into account how even dim people sometimes have flashes of brilliance).

Conclusion: The scores and modifiers are numbers meant for the mechanics of the game. A player coming up with an idea(!) does not fall under those parameters.

-E

 

[famousringo]

I disagree. The structure of the rules doesn't push me to assign stats in any way. I have an idea of the type of character I want to play, how I envision him or her (which includes personality, appearance, etc), and then set my stats appropriately. I design my PCs how I envision them, not based on metagaming knowledge or modifiers. There could be ZERO mechanical modifiers that come up in the game, but that won't change me from putting a decent score in INT if I want to play a character that's pretty smart. That's what a role-playing game means.

LOL, well if you don't care about game design, I suppose I'm not here to argue that you should. I'll just note that what you describe, a stat with no mechanics (we used to call it Charisma in 1st Ed, and we liked it so much we split it into another mechanic-free stat called Comliness ;p ) isn't a role-playing game. It's just role-playing, period. Without rules there is no game, and people like me who care about game design believe that better rules will make a better game.

 

[Mondobone]

OP here.

I haven't quite read through the whole thing, but one thing I feel I need to mention is that this is 5th ed and you can't actually go below 8 for the stat. The players in my current group have 3 scores of 8, 1 of 10, and 1 of 20 (because it's the wizard, so of course). I am not saying that int has no purpose, or that people are dumping it to super low levels. Just that when compared to other statistics most players see the others are more valuable and the reasons for that are pretty valid, I think.

And as mentioned with the various roleplaying checks people are suggesting. Low (or average, realistically) int doesn't mean that you wouldn't come up with those things after tons of experience. Even some knowledge checks are probably pretty low. Rolling knowledge on rare creatures is fine, but wouldn't it be pretty natural that most people know a troll is vulnerable to fire? Like in all their life they haven't heard that one? It's a crazy magical adventure world, shouldn't most people know the basics of undead slaying? Especially if they're adventurers and hang around other adventurers. Enforcing int for roleplaying and in-game knowledge is just a bit too harsh, still, in my opinion.

 

[Gimul]

Well no, I'm not in your game. Whether you are smarter than me or not is irrelevant.

For your own game, it matters. If it's true that "[you] give them information or logical insight on a level commiserate with their roll," then that means you know the sum total of what can happen in that particular scenario; YOU would have to have a 20 INT to be able to determine which plans the PCs make correspond to which INT scores.

The problem is you DON'T have an INT score of 20. So what happens now? How do you, average INT score person, know whether a PLAYER's idea is commiserate with her CHARACTER'S choice?

You don't. You're not equipped.

(This isn't even taking into account how even dim people sometimes have flashes of brilliance).

Conclusion: The scores and modifiers are numbers meant for the mechanics of the game. A player coming up with an idea(!) does not fall under those parameters.

-E

Now that you've returned to the actual topic:

I'm the DM, I'm adjudicating the scenario. It's not necessary to enumerate every potential outcome, because I am deciding the outcome. Although, more typically the situation is that I know what actually happened; while the players are trying to figure it out after the fact. So yes, I am in a position to give them guidance; whether it's confirming a suspicion, giving additional information, or deciding on the fly "that idea is awesome, so that's what's actually going on now".

 

[Eric V]

The argument people are making here is that low INT characters shouldn't be able to have clever plans, even if the player is clever.

That argument only works if it accounts for high INT characters as well...but just "being the DM" doesn't give you the adequate resources to be able to say you know what a 20 INT plan looks like. In other words, if a DM can forbid a clever plan from a low INT character, then a normal INT player playing a high INT character should just be able to say "I come up with something clever," and have it work.

 

[abirdcall]

If you are going to make a player roll intelligence to see if their character could come up with the idea then it works the other way. They can just say "I come up with the solution to the problem" for every part of the game. I mean, their Int 20 character is brilliant and they are not, are you going to expect them to actually come up with it.

People underestimate how smart Int 8 really is too.

As far as the game itself I kind of think it is okay for intelligence to not be very high for most adventurers. In world building it makes sense. I do split up some Wisdom saves over to Int and Cha though. Not a ton, but more than is written.

 

[matskralc]

In other words, if a DM can forbid a clever plan from a low INT character, then a normal INT player playing a high INT character should just be able to say "I come up with something clever," and have it work.

Not just that, but they better be forbidding their high INT characters from trying to implement dumb plans, too. I sure hope that for every "your charcter isn't smart enough to think of that, so no" they had better also be announcing "whoa, your charcter's too smart to try that, so no".

 

[Gimul]

The argument people are making here is that low INT characters shouldn't be able to have clever plans, even if the player is clever.

That argument only works if it accounts for high INT characters as well...but just "being the DM" doesn't give you the adequate resources to be able to say you know what a 20 INT plan looks like. In other words, if a DM can forbid a clever plan from a low INT character, then a normal INT player playing a high INT character should just be able to say "I come up with something clever," and have it work.

You are asserting a false premise. I don't need to know what a "20 Int plan" looks like. All I need to determine is if a given plan is or could be successful and what the outcome is. Similarly I don't need to know what a "6 Int plan" looks like. All I need to determine is if it is or could be successful and what the outcome is.

Saying "I do something clever" would be insufficient, for the same reason at 20 Str player saying "I do something strong" would be insufficient. Saying "I attempt to confuse them" or "... distract them", etc... is more reasonable although that doesn't guarantee the player will like the resulting outcome.

The point being, I don't ignore my players stats and don't allow my players to substitute their own social skills for that of their characters. Although, it's typically not a problem as my players value roleplay.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The argument people are making here is that low INT characters shouldn't be able to have clever plans, even if the player is clever.

That argument only works if it accounts for high INT characters as well...but just "being the DM" doesn't give you the adequate resources to be able to say you know what a 20 INT plan looks like. In other words, if a DM can forbid a clever plan from a low INT character, then a normal INT player playing a high INT character should just be able to say "I come up with something clever," and have it work.

I might word it a little diffrently but I would allow it