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D&D General 6-8 encounters (combat?)

How do you think the 6-8 encounter can go?

  • 6-8 combat only

    Votes: 18 15.9%
  • 3-4 combat and 1-2 exploration and 1-2 social

    Votes: 10 8.8%
  • 3-4 combat and 3-4 exploration and 3-4 social

    Votes: 3 2.7%
  • any combination

    Votes: 19 16.8%
  • forget that guidance

    Votes: 63 55.8%

  • Poll closed .

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Then we have bigger problems dont we?
Nope.

The players and PCs having adventure hook options or not is a Session 0 discussion.


Typically when I play I inform the DM that my PC will have some sense of self determination, preservation, interest in quests and hooks and how they handle them. And that the DM and players are expected to entertain each other somewhat.

6-8 encounters an adventure day with tons of resources is grindy as is...
 

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Fanaelialae

Legend
Nothing I said ever requires that. All I said was that if the combat goes longer, many spells and effects (like rage) can have more value. You brought in waves, I don't care if it's waves or one big attack. You brought in "I wouldn't have cast it", in which case in my thing then you never cast it, and you've cast something else. And if it had a duration, it might be getting more.

You are trying to put caveats on this that don't exist.


No, I did not make that claim at all. Because I am not comparing the Commoner to the Revised Commoner. I am comparing something to the Actual_Class. So the Commoner vs. Actual_Class wasn't balanced. And perhaps the Revised Commoner vs. Actual_Class is.

Please note what I am comparing. It is very different than what your understanding is.

I put forth, and then you agreed, that a barbarian that could rage all the time played one way, and that one with 6-8 combats felt, as you put it lackluster.

Assign values of power to "always able to rage barbarian" and "lackluster barbarian". I'm going to make up 7 and 4, but it can be anything. Now compare these to an at-will like the rogue. Let's say the rogue is a 6. It can really be any number, it doesn't matter. In this case the lackluster barbarian is poorly balanced against the rogue. It could be the other way - the always raging barbarian might be the one poorly balanced compared to the rogue. Or rogue might be right in the middle and one is too high and one two low. It doesn't matter, except that the ratio between the barbarians and the rogue changes based on the number of encounters - as you move from "always able to rage" to "lack-luster".


I had already mentioned that too weak is also a balance point, and gave an example of the 2014 PHB Beastmaster Ranger. Lackluster Barbarian may be unbalanced as too weak.


You said it held no value. I showed the value in it continuing. YES, to compare it to not continuing but still not spending more actions and resources I needed to pick the frankly stupid value of just dropping it. How else would you have me compare it to it not continuing?


Again, how do I show an residual value without showing a "with" and a "without"? And you've agreed with me with the "obviously..." bit that it has residual value vs. it not continuing for no reason.

Keeping this apples to apples, no additional actions or resources spent, please show me how you would like me to present "continue" vs. "not continue" for it.


OH, but this is the wrong metric. If I prevented 12 actions (4 "doods" x 3 rounds) or prevented 20 actions (4 "doods" x 5 rounds), that's a big deal. If I broke the foes into waves of 4, 3, and 2 instead of waves of 4 and 5, so we had less of them to deal with at any one time, that absolutely is a big deal.


Please go back and reread the original presentation. Duration is only the last two paragraphs before the summation, it's a minor part of the whole thing. The majority is about the average effectiveness per action, with long-rest-recovery classes often having some that are well above the static value for an at-will class, so needing to balance with low-value action as well.
This is a very skewed way of looking at the value that Hypnotic Pattern adds to an encounter.

The value of a spell like Hypnotic Pattern should be measured in its ability to break one encounter into several smaller encounters.

Let's say that we're fighting 5 orcs, each of which has a 20% chance to successfully save against a spell.

I cast Hypnotic Pattern, incapacitating 4 orcs. The party kills the remaining orc. Then, they stand around with their fingers up their noses for an entire round. Has Hypnotic Pattern added value over that "lost" round? Clearly not. Contrast that with a spell like Spiritual Guardians, which could legitimately add value over such a round even if the players did nothing, since it could be damaging the orcs.

Otherwise, a Fireball that kills all 5 orcs on round 1 has greater value from duration than Hypnotic Pattern (it prevented all of the attacks!). Which is clearly an absurd conclusion, since it has no duration.

The value of a spell like Hypnotic Pattern is its ability to break a single encounter into multiple mini-waves. That value fairly consistent regardless of the duration of the encounter. Its value does not increase over a long encounter, though it may decrease, because the spell is worth less if the duration expires or concentration is disrupted, which is significantly more probable in the case of longer encounters.

I've done my best to explain, so now I'm simply going to drop the matter.
 

Typically when I play I inform the DM that my PC will have some sense of self determination, preservation, interest in quests and hooks and how they handle them.

Typically when I DM there is an unwritten rule that players dont just ignore hooks for quests from the DM because that makes them jerks.

DM: OK guys as you're sitting around the tavern, you're approached by a mysterious str...
Players: Nah, dont want to do that.
DM: Riiight. Well, who wants to watch a movie then?
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Typically when I DM there is an unwritten rule that players dont just ignore hooks for quests from the DM because that makes them jerks.

DM: OK guys as you're sitting around the tavern, you're approached by a mysterious str...
Players: Nah, dont want to do that.
DM: Riiight. Well, who wants to watch a movie then?
It's an unwritten rule that players don't ignore all hooks and don't play.

It's also an unwritten rule that players are not obligated to ride railroad unless they agreed to. Especially a railroad that can be long that their character might not care about completing.

A doom clock of 8 encounters with convenient 1 hour resting spots gets slate fast to me and many others.
 

Typically when I DM there is an unwritten rule that players dont just ignore hooks for quests from the DM because that makes them jerks.

DM: OK guys as you're sitting around the tavern, you're approached by a mysterious str...
Players: Nah, dont want to do that.
DM: Riiight. Well, who wants to watch a movie then?
I have not had to enforce it in 6+ years, and I don't think we have even spoken of it in 2 or 3 years...but we all agreed to a house rule of "If your character doesn't want to go on the adventure or just wouldn't then by all means go ahead and go draw up a character who WILL go with the party."
 

It's an unwritten rule that players don't ignore all hooks and don't play.

It's also an unwritten rule that players are not obligated to ride railroad unless they agreed to. Especially a railroad that can be long that their character might not care about completing.

A doom clock of 8 encounters with convenient 1 hour resting spots gets slate fast to me and many others.
If you dont want to follow the hooks that's fine.

Go watch a movie while the rest of us play.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
If you dont want to follow the hooks that's fine.

Go watch a movie while the rest of us play.

Again that's not my point.

My point is that 5e is uses a 6-8 encounters per adventuring day to drain enough resources equally from every PC to keep them balanced. Using doom clocks to enforce that would get boring after a while as most DMs would struggle to constantly come up with good doom clocks.

Just when back to one of my campaign notes. I as the DM, have offered 11 kidnapping/abduction quests over 7 levels which wold count as doom clocks.

I have 6 NPCs that either requires magics spells to get to and talk to, causes damage in their lair, or requires magic spells in someway to be spent during, before, or after interaction as a way to drain resources in social and exploration encounters..

The many usage I use for Level UP, in this campaign is ideas for noncombat encounters and traps that drain resources.
 

Again that's not my point.

My point is that 5e is uses a 6-8 encounters per adventuring day to drain enough resources equally from every PC to keep them balanced. Using doom clocks to enforce that would get boring after a while as most DMs would struggle to constantly come up with good doom clocks.
I literally ran a campaign to 20th plus over 3 years of real time using doom clocks regularly.

Age of Worms, with some Pathfinder modules I converted and all of the C series of AD&D modules as well (also converted).
 

D&D should move away from the resource attrition that was so prevalent in previous editions.
Some items will need to remain but for the most part encounters should deplete health/stamina and equipment not abilities/powers/class features.

Resources should be health/stamina and equipment (components, rations, water, weapons, armour durability...etc)

My two cents.
 

I literally ran a campaign to 20th plus over 3 years of real time using doom clocks regularly.

Age of Worms, with some Pathfinder modules I converted and all of the C series of AD&D modules as well (also converted).
I have also just finished running a Paizo campaign (Legacy of Fire) and it doesn’t really support your point.

There are a lot of filler combats, arbitrary restrictions on spellcasters, blatant contrivances and heavy-handed doom clocks in those modules.
 

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