6 Epic Spells Per Day at Level 21?

[irdeggman]

Does the text under teh Epic Spells section help to explain how things eork?


From SRD:

EPIC SPELLCASTING
Once an epic spell is developed, the caster knows the spell. A developed epic spell becomes an indelible part of the caster and may be prepared without a spellbook (if a wizard is the caster). Characters who cast spells spontaneously, such as sorcerers, can cast a developed epic spell by using any open epic spell slot. Druids, clerics, and similar spellcasters can likewise prepare epic spells using epic spell slots.

A spellcaster can prepare or cast any epic spell he or she knows as many times per day as he or she has available epic spell slots. A spellcaster who can cast epic spells has a number of open epic spell slots per day equal to one-tenth his or her ranks in the Knowledge skill appropriate to the spell and the caster’s class. Knowledge (arcana) is appropriate for arcane casters, and Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature) is appropriate for divine casters. The rules for rest between casting a day’s allotment of epic spells are the same as for rest required to prepare standard spells. If the caster doesn’t use up a day’s allotment of epic spell slots, the unused slots remain available whether or not the spellcaster receives appropriate rest.

Even if the epic spell has been developed and an epic spell slot is available, successfully casting an epic spell isn’t assured. The caster’s Spellcraft skill modifier is vital for casting an epic spell. To cast an epic spell, a spellcaster makes a Spellcraft check against the epic spell’s Spellcraft DC. If the check succeeds, the spell is cast. If the caster fails the check, the epic spell fizzles and the epic spell slot is used for the day.

Because epic spells require Spellcraft checks, a spell is beyond the caster’s ability if the final Spellcraft DC is greater than 20 + the spellcaster’s Spellcraft modifier. Epic spells with DCs higher than 10 + the spellcaster’s Spellcraft modifier are risky; a caster can take 10 when casting an epic spell, but he or she can’t take 20. When routinely casting epic spells, most spellcasters take 10 on their Spellcraft checks.

 

[KarinsDad]

Your interpretation is a valid one, but not the only valid one, precisely because of the ambiguity between the Benefit and Special sections of the feat.

I think only someone who wants to interpret it as 6 spells will do so.

 

[Marshall]

Does it matter?

At 21st level you can only afford, at most, one epic spell. Or, if you lower the DCs enough to get more than one, it'll take more than a day to cast.

Useful Epic spellcasting is essentially restricted to the level 30+ range.

 

[Terath Ninir]

What does meeting the prereqs three times have to do with the benefit of the feat? It doesn't matter is you meet the prereqs 50 times, the benefit is what is important.

Incorrect! Read the "Special" section. You get the benefit every time you meet the prerequisites. There are three sets of prereqs. The sample character meets them all. This is NOT an arbitrary thing; this is the very core of the question at hand.

This feat seems worded fine to me. No ambiguity at all. Even when you pick it apart sentence by sentence, you get the same result.

This thread would not be as long as it is if that was true.

You meet the prereqs 3 different ways (no doubt about it). And if you are an arcane caster (which you are) you get Knowledge (Arcana)/10 Epic spells. And if you are a divine caster (which you are) you get Knowledge (Religion) OR Knowledge (Nature) (your choice)/10 Epic spells. The amount of spells you gain from being an arcane caster and the amount of spells you gain from being a divine caster ARE cumulative, so there is also no descrepancy there either (this from the "Special" section at the end of the feat).

That is not what the feat says. That is probably what it SHOULD say, and if it did, this thread wouldn't have happened. But it is not what the feat says.

 

[KarinsDad]

That is not what the feat says.

Sure it is.

If you meet 2 prereqs, it is cumulative.

If you meet 3 prereqs, it is cumulative.

But what is cumulative is still specified by the Benefits section.

One only gets two spells for arcane and/or two spells for divine. One cannot ignore the "or" in the Benefits section and still have a valid interpretation. The 6 spells interpretation of using the wording of the Special section to somehow trump the wording of the Benefit section does that.

That's how interpretation works. One has to take the big picture, not just state that one sentence trumps another because he wants it to.

RigaMortus2's interpretation is the only one suggested so far that takes into account every sentence in the feat and does not ignore anything. Hence, his is the best interpretation.

It is also fairly obvious that his interpretation was designer intent as well. And, it appears that most people in the thread think that 4 is the proper answer as well.


Just because there is a little weasel room in the wording of the feat does not mean that the proper interpretation cannot easily be determined. It just means that the OP found some weasel room in the wording of the feat and that some rules lawyers might try to take advantage of that.

 

[tomBitonti]

Agree with limit == 4

Hi,

I'm with KarinsDad on this one ... the 'special' text applies in part to the prerequisites
text, and in part to the benefits text. KarinsDad explained it well enough for me.

 

[Diirk]

So most people think a 17 wizard/17 cleric should get 4 spells (assuming relevant skills maxed) while a 17 cleric/17 druid only gets 2 ? Even though in all other cases, druid and cleric spells per day are completely seperate from each other?

 

[DarkKestral]

So most people think a 17 wizard/17 cleric should get 4 spells (assuming relevant skills maxed) while a 17 cleric/17 druid only gets 2 ? Even though in all other cases, druid and cleric spells per day are completely seperate from each other?

Honestly, I'll probably read the feat as one chance of meeting the prereqs per type of casting, so sure. For one thing, to do otherwise ends up a problem, as you run into the class-based casting issue, since if you allow separate classes to count as meeting the prereqs individually, the number of epic spells per day will soar beyond heights unknown to man pretty speedily. If you don't, you end up messing with players abilities a bit.

The problem is the same for a sorceror 17/wizard 17, so I'm not playing favorites.

 

[Diirk]

Honestly, I'll probably read the feat as one chance of meeting the prereqs per type of casting, so sure. For one thing, to do otherwise ends up a problem, as you run into the class-based casting issue, since if you allow separate classes to count as meeting the prereqs individually, the number of epic spells per day will soar beyond heights unknown to man pretty speedily. If you don't, you end up messing with players abilities a bit.

The problem is the same for a sorceror 17/wizard 17, so I'm not playing favorites.

That's probably the fairest interpretation, but it very much isn't what the feat says.

 

[Cheiromancer]

The caster described in the OP gets 6 spells. He meets the prerequisites three different ways, so the benefit accumulates; 2 spells (at ranks/10) for each time he meets the prerequisite.

The ELH system is poorly written, but I doubt this is what the designers intended. A DM probably shouldn't allow "double dipping" with the same class levels. But what's the expression? "That's not RAW, but it would make a fine house rule."

@Marshall: you can cast the same spell multiple times in a day.

@KarinsDad: I think the caster should be able to only cast 2 epic spells, but the rules don't support that reading. 4 would be better than 6, but I don't think the rules say that either. Could you spell out why the divine benefit isn't invoked twice, once for Knowledge (religion) and once for Knowledge (nature)? If I can get $100 for selling my comic books OR by selling my RPG books, I should be able to get $200 if I sell both, right?

Benefit: The character may develop and cast epic spells. If the character is an arcane spellcaster, he or she may cast a number of epic spells per day equal to his or her ranks in Knowledge (arcana) divided by 10. If the character is a divine spellcaster, he or she may cast a number of epic spells per day equal to his or her ranks in Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature) divided by 10.