6 players, 5 hours, 4th edition

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

I am curious about two things:

1. The perception things... I assume that is some sort of thing where the GM rolls in secret and then asks who has what perception, or were they more of a static thing... e.g. The traps had a perception value of 20, so nobody except a rogue would have spotted it.

2. Was there no roleplay as all, this was straight combat, and even then it was just one combat after another? I would like to know if they are demoing the roleplay / diplomacy type scenarios at all.

I for one appreciate your writing this review. As a fence sitter, I thought it was a good glimpse into what I couldn't go and do myself. I just hope someone snags the whold DM book and posts it Thanks for doing this review.

I don't know. I'm assuming the latter. On my skill list, I had 'Passive Perceptio' and 'Passive Insight'. Passive Perception is essentially an automatic Take 10 that's always in effect. Presumably that was too low to sense the traps. In that regard, while it might save the DM some dice rolling, it seems a bit cut and dried for my tastes. If the DC is 20, I'm screwed unless I'm actively looking and roll. I can see advantages both ways; I'd have to play more to come down one way or the other.

This was pure combat. As soon as one encounter ended, it was set up the map and roll initiative for the next one. Someone said they heard/thought/knew that one of the other scenarios was more skills based and less combat.

 

[Spatula]

Thanks for the detailed account, Rodrigo. The others that I've read were all pretty non-specific about what the scenarios involved or how they played out.

 

[Carnivorous_Bean]

Nitpick: aren't almost all units of measurement human-constructed and arbitrary? Perhaps "squares" is the D&D unit of measurement over stuff like feet or meters. It's certainly more convenient...

Human? Yes. Arbitrary? In my opinion, Imperial measurements aren't arbitrary, but metric ones are, which is why they're hard to visualize.

One inch is the width of a thumb. A yard is the length of a stride. One foot is a third of a yard -- the starting 'foot', the ending 'foot,' and the 'foot' of space in between. A mile is the distance you can walk in about 15 minutes if you keep a good pace. And although Fahrenheit temperature is more arbitrary, 1 degree F is about the smallest temperature difference that human skin can detect. So no, they're not arbitrary, they fit comfortably with numans because they're designed around human parameters. We carry the yardsticks for them in our very cells. They're natural for us.

Metrics are arbitrary because they don't relate in the slightest to human measurements, which is why they're usually so clumsy except for extremely tiny measurements that humans don't directly interact with anyway. A person is somewhere between 1 and 2 meters tall unless they're grossly deformed -- but then you have to say "177 cm", which means absolutely nothing you can visualize .... whereas you know that someone 6 foot 1 is a bit on the tall side, but not gigantic. Unless you're deformed, your step is less than a meter, and a lot longer than a centimeter. And on and on. Metrics don't work well for everyday stuff because they're arbitrary and don't fit in naturally with human measurements. Personally, I think adopting them is the worst idea ever. They're not made to fit us.

In a similar way, "squares" are an arbitrary measurement that has no natural relationship to human dimension. You have to mentally convert it before you can visualize, which stinks. I like a lot of what I've heard of 4e so far, but personally, the idea of measuring everything in squares is something that just adds complexity to the game, rather than removing it (because of the need to convert it to some measurement that you can actual visualize).

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Ehh, it is also a learned thing, I know metric so I can never EVER visualize feet or yards or miles, but centimetres, meters, kilometres I am good.

 

[Carnivorous_Bean]

Ehh, it is also a learned thing, I know metric so I can never EVER visualize feet or yards or miles, but centimetres, meters, kilometres I am good.

Hm .... I guess all the metric users I've known have been atypical, then. They really have no idea how far away things are. And visualizing the height difference between 170 and 177 centimeters, instantly and easily? Is that possible even for you? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Height and weight I am Imperial, but I think that has more to do with being engrossed by Imperial stuff from the States dealing with such (I think actually stuff like D&D influenced this, since when it came to describing one's character the general weights and heights were in Imperial. So I learned Imperial for this, while when it came to play since we were quite young we simply just used the squares and didn't bother with actual measurements). Like if you said what is 5 feet outside of height I would have no clue, same with what is 100 pounds outside weight, no clue.

I do know other people, here in Canada... Seems generally younger, that only know metric for height and weight (pushing it more in school I guess).

Also how old are these people you know? Since it could very well be they learnt Imperial in school instead of metric (my father is obviously Canadian and knows metric but he was raised on Imperial so can only visualize Imperial).

 

[AndrewRogue]

As someone who is eagerly looking forward to 4th, I just want to thank you for the full review. Keeps some of my concerns, and eases others.

Hrm.... how different did the characters feel? Despite similar mechanics, did it feel like there were several different classes at the table? I know these were pregen characters and all with limited flexibility, but did it feel like the system could support characters with more mixed abilities?

 

[GSHamster]

For the squares thing, you have to remember that D&D is an international game. One large chunk of the audience uses feet, and the other large chunk uses meters, and there's probably some of us who use both. Squares is just an abstraction that allows the same rules to be used in both markets easily.

As well, squares also maps to grid-based play very easily. You don't have to divide by 5 or 2 all the time, making the game simpler, especially for younger players. It also makes for an easier transition for D&D mini players, making the mini game a better "gateway" into D&D.

The price is that game feels more "board-gamey" but considering both advantages, I see the trade-off as a reasonable choice on WotC's part.

 

[helium3]

You don't think the ability for an entire race to teleport 25 feet is powerful?

It depends on the context. In the context of 3E, yes. Powerful but not as powerful as any outsider that can teleport to any other location in the same plane without error and at will.

In 1E? So broken that Gary Gygax spontaneously combusted and then collapsed in upon his own mass, crushing down into a single point so dense it warps the fabric of space and time around it to the point where even light cannot escape.

In 4? Meh. So what. So can every other Eladrin, including toddlers. Sometimes, Eladrin fetuses will accidentally fey step out of their mother's womb.

Besides combat, there are things like Eladrin armies being able to teleport across (short) rivers and that sort of thing.

Obviously you didn't read the original post I made on the matter. It's very clear that the subtext coming from the (rapidly growing apparently) pro-4E side of the room is that if you care about this you are totally a clomping nerd that lives in his mom's basement and is still a virgin. Unlike them. They live in their mom's detached garage that's been converted into an apartment and are way cooler.

Certain players can easily reach ledges and other obstacles that they might not have relatively easily.

I know. And I fully expect to see hundreds of posts decrying the brokenossity that is the ease with which Eladrin players can now reach ledges.

Of course, 3E parties can do this, albeit at a higher level, and they generally have to spend resources to do it.

Again. Context. The importance of resource management in 4E has been vastly decreased compared to 3E on account of being "unfun." You cannot make a comparison like that. Well, you can, but it doesn't really mean anything.

I'm not too worried about it, but I'm curious about the general ramifications outside of combat an ability like this might have.

Again. We are all clomping nerds now if we care about things like this. We are supposed to care that Dragonborne Females are hot lizard chicks with big boobies and look great in chainmail bikinis.

 

[hong]

Again. We are all clomping nerds now if we care about things like this.

Er... and?