tombowings
Explorer
I would like to see a version of D&D that has enough flexibility that I can create the game world, then apply the system--not butcher the world to fit the system or heck the system to fit the world.
D&D General 6E But A + Thread
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
So how do you do this? Roll a d6 and subtract 3 to give you -2 to +3 on every ability?
People may not like the default 3-18 ability scores, but using multiple dice improves central tendancy and decreases variation.
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No it was't. Only two PCs could take the spell, but all five wanted him to change his decision.
Most of the party was LESS powerful in relative terms compared to the two that wanted to take the spell.
mellored
Legend
Make them a magic item and let the DM / designer decide.
No I'm not wrong. They are different. But if they were the same, I will again point out that there is WILD imbalance in BG3 and people LOVE BG3.
If your argument is that video games are the same as TTRPGs then Baldur's gate PROVES there is not a problem among players with imbalance and people thoroughly enjoy playing with severe imbalance.
Yeah and they all got buffed.
Those same surveys went hard against the moves to balance Warlocks, Druids and some spells.
If you are going by the surveys it is very clear that balance has little if anything to do with what people liked.
No. They wanted some underpowered options to be more powerful. They wanted other underpowered options to remain underpowered, they wanted some overpowered options to be more overpowered and even wanted some overpowered options to be more overpowered.
That is what the surveys actually indicated if you look at what they presented in the UA and then changed in the final printing.
What does this mean in terms of overall balance of the game - IMO it means people don't care about it, or at least it is not a major concern and takes a back seat to other things.
People wanted Fighters and Champions to be more powerful compared to other classes/subclasses. Yes, I agree with you on this, and across level 1-20 Fighters and the Champion subclass are closer to being balanced with other classes/subclasses then they were before.
But at the same time they did not want Warlocks to be more balanced with other casters. They rejected those changes.
They also wanted Sorcerers to be improved and be closer to Wizards, and while this made those two classes closer it also increased the imbalance overall as Sorcerer was already a powerful class in 2014 and now they are more unbalanced than ever if compared across all 12 classes .... but people wanted that.
Rogues were a weak class in 2014 and while they improved they improved a lot less than most other classes. Measured against all 12 classes, they are more imbalanced now than they were in 2014. Meanwhile the Assassin subclass was substantially improved (more balance) and the strongest subclass, Arcane Trickster, was improved as well (less balance).
You can't cherry pick examples. If you look across the entire playtest, what survived and what didn't; it is clear the focus was on individual ideas and mechanics, not on a trend to move everything closer to being balanced and the 2024 game is not more balanced overall than the 2014 game was. Some weak things were made better, but other weak things were left to be weak and other strong things were either left strong or improved.
No I am demonstrably, objectively right.
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Scribe
Legend
Did they? I for one slammed the Warlock and it was brought back to reality a bit.
mamba
Legend
the whole party benefits when some players have access
proving that it wasn’t about accomplishing better balance…
mamba
Legend
doesn’t WotC say to not worry about balance in your feedback, but about the idea itself? That seems to imply that they do not care much about balance feedback and work on that themselves instead
What would I want from 6e D&D... Here's my top 11. Why 11? Contrarian I guess.
1) More Variation in Spellcasting
Clerics and Druids capping out at 7th level spells, Sorcerers and Wizards capping out at 9th. Bards, Rangers, Paladins, Etc capping out at 5th. BUT. Cleric level 7 spells are as strong as Wizard 9th level spells. So there's different magical progression between the classes. This also includes quasi-unique spell lists. Yeah, some stuff should overlap. But each class should have a -lot- of spells that are unique to the class and highlight their narrative elements. Give the Bard unique attack magic rather than slapping "Shatter" on them because it's sound and calling it good.
2) Core Psionics
They need to be there from the start, rather than being a later tacked on system. Especially if you're going to have Mind Flayers and the like from day 1. Otherwise you either need to make your later psionics alter earlier implementations or constrain your later psionics by those earlier implementations. Neither is a good way to go about it. And while it shouldn't even need to be said: Have that implementation be different from Spellcasting. Especially don't just make it "You use Psi Points to cast Wizard Spells!"
3) Martial Arts
Fighters need more to do than "Move. Attack -twice-. End turn." Streamline the basic combat maneuvers (disarm, grapple, etc) and make them more viable/reasonable as options, and then add in more specialized maneuvers for all fighters. And also monks. Barbarians. Rangers. Paladins. Some of these should be throughput increases, but most should just be repositioning options, added conditions to attacks, and things of that nature. Give them a limited resource that refreshes on a short rest to fuel their maneuvers.
4) Second and Third Pillar Core Class Design
Everyone knows the Rogue is the skill monkey and Wizards can bypass any social or exploration challenge with a liberal use of magic. But the rest of the classes (mostly the fighty types) deserve to be just as involved in those elements of the game as anyone else. So bake that stuff into the classes. Give Barbarians giant leaps to get past obstacles and keen senses like smell or hearing as core competencies rather than optional choices. Let fighters know everything about weapons, armor, military engagements, and stuff.
5) Lay the Book out around Character Generation
This one's kinda wild. But work your way down and across the character sheet through the book, rather than having "Character Creation" and "Combat" be separate sections. That way as someone learns what weapons are available they learn how those weapons work and how the armor they're picking for their character stops enemy weapons from working on them.
6) Aim for a specific Feel
If the goal is to make a heroic fantasy then start the heroic fantasy at level 1 and have every level after that provide options and scaling of early abilities, rather than being a constant upward trend of power level so that you don't have to skip to level 3 to feel like a 'real character'. If you want Bounded Accuracy how about building Bounded HP into it, as well? Old D&D had people just gain HP after a specific level rather than rolling hit dice. Bring that back.
7) Kill Healing Spells
What a terrible idea they were and continue to be. You either spend your turn patching people up in the hopes they don't hit the ground immediately so you can do something else with your next turn, or feeling like it's your fault someone died 'cause you took a moment to fight an enemy instead of spending your action healing. Yeah, the 3 death saves thing helps with that a lot, but the yoyo is obnoxious. Build healing directly into the healing classes as a renewable resource that takes less than their action to wield.
8) Build Foundations
Innovation is important. The best games are built to expand to new options. So build systems that are designed to be adapted to different uses. For example a simple resource-management system that maps to overland travel and in-town time management and dungeon-running. Build the bones of systems that can be used for multiple purposes and are flexible enough for adaptation. For example saving throws. Yeah, they're great for spells and puzzles. But wouldn't they also be great for combat maneuvers? Get -way- more use out of Strength saves if enemies forced more of them through various maneuvers and so did the Fighter or Barbarian in the party. How about making Psionics specifically target Int and Cha saves rather than Wis or Dex?
9) Support the Third Party Community
No brainer, really. Give people a lot of room to build through the OGL and Creative Commons and stuff. Yes it means you don't have utter control over everything, but that's not the worst thing in the world by a long shot. Specifically HIGHLIGHT INDIVIDUALS. Don't care how you select them, but specifically look out for talent. Get someone on staff to buy a copy of every 3rd party book for your system and a team of people to read and go over the material to scout talent and concepts that can be run up the flagpole. OGL goes both ways.
10) Build New Settings with Allegory
Science Fiction and Fantasy are both allegorical by nature. They tackle the problems of the past, present, and future in an environment slightly removed from the real world. Tell political stories with allegory because they quickly become timeless. Whether that's Dark Sun's Climate Narrative or Star Wars' First Order. Yes. People are going to want to play in their favorite setting. Release updates for them to bring them into mechanical compliance, but just release new adventures. There's plenty of old books and lore people can use. We don't need a 6e Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.
11) Stop consulting and start hiring
WotC famously hires consultants for sensitivity and stuff. People to read some material and then approve it or explain how to 'fix' it and then they're done. Contracted for a single product, maybe brought back later. Just hire people of various ethnicities, sexualities, ability, backgrounds, genders, etc, and have them write the material in the first place. Could be a -huge- component of number 9. Get tons of people from tons of communities and produce content which takes into their experiences and perspectives from the start, together.
"Oh, but what about our overhead from all these employees?" you're WotC. You're Hasbro. Eat the slightly smaller quantity of obscene profits and focus on creating something bigger than 5e.
1) More Variation in Spellcasting
Clerics and Druids capping out at 7th level spells, Sorcerers and Wizards capping out at 9th. Bards, Rangers, Paladins, Etc capping out at 5th. BUT. Cleric level 7 spells are as strong as Wizard 9th level spells. So there's different magical progression between the classes. This also includes quasi-unique spell lists. Yeah, some stuff should overlap. But each class should have a -lot- of spells that are unique to the class and highlight their narrative elements. Give the Bard unique attack magic rather than slapping "Shatter" on them because it's sound and calling it good.
2) Core Psionics
They need to be there from the start, rather than being a later tacked on system. Especially if you're going to have Mind Flayers and the like from day 1. Otherwise you either need to make your later psionics alter earlier implementations or constrain your later psionics by those earlier implementations. Neither is a good way to go about it. And while it shouldn't even need to be said: Have that implementation be different from Spellcasting. Especially don't just make it "You use Psi Points to cast Wizard Spells!"
3) Martial Arts
Fighters need more to do than "Move. Attack -twice-. End turn." Streamline the basic combat maneuvers (disarm, grapple, etc) and make them more viable/reasonable as options, and then add in more specialized maneuvers for all fighters. And also monks. Barbarians. Rangers. Paladins. Some of these should be throughput increases, but most should just be repositioning options, added conditions to attacks, and things of that nature. Give them a limited resource that refreshes on a short rest to fuel their maneuvers.
4) Second and Third Pillar Core Class Design
Everyone knows the Rogue is the skill monkey and Wizards can bypass any social or exploration challenge with a liberal use of magic. But the rest of the classes (mostly the fighty types) deserve to be just as involved in those elements of the game as anyone else. So bake that stuff into the classes. Give Barbarians giant leaps to get past obstacles and keen senses like smell or hearing as core competencies rather than optional choices. Let fighters know everything about weapons, armor, military engagements, and stuff.
5) Lay the Book out around Character Generation
This one's kinda wild. But work your way down and across the character sheet through the book, rather than having "Character Creation" and "Combat" be separate sections. That way as someone learns what weapons are available they learn how those weapons work and how the armor they're picking for their character stops enemy weapons from working on them.
6) Aim for a specific Feel
If the goal is to make a heroic fantasy then start the heroic fantasy at level 1 and have every level after that provide options and scaling of early abilities, rather than being a constant upward trend of power level so that you don't have to skip to level 3 to feel like a 'real character'. If you want Bounded Accuracy how about building Bounded HP into it, as well? Old D&D had people just gain HP after a specific level rather than rolling hit dice. Bring that back.
7) Kill Healing Spells
What a terrible idea they were and continue to be. You either spend your turn patching people up in the hopes they don't hit the ground immediately so you can do something else with your next turn, or feeling like it's your fault someone died 'cause you took a moment to fight an enemy instead of spending your action healing. Yeah, the 3 death saves thing helps with that a lot, but the yoyo is obnoxious. Build healing directly into the healing classes as a renewable resource that takes less than their action to wield.
8) Build Foundations
Innovation is important. The best games are built to expand to new options. So build systems that are designed to be adapted to different uses. For example a simple resource-management system that maps to overland travel and in-town time management and dungeon-running. Build the bones of systems that can be used for multiple purposes and are flexible enough for adaptation. For example saving throws. Yeah, they're great for spells and puzzles. But wouldn't they also be great for combat maneuvers? Get -way- more use out of Strength saves if enemies forced more of them through various maneuvers and so did the Fighter or Barbarian in the party. How about making Psionics specifically target Int and Cha saves rather than Wis or Dex?
9) Support the Third Party Community
No brainer, really. Give people a lot of room to build through the OGL and Creative Commons and stuff. Yes it means you don't have utter control over everything, but that's not the worst thing in the world by a long shot. Specifically HIGHLIGHT INDIVIDUALS. Don't care how you select them, but specifically look out for talent. Get someone on staff to buy a copy of every 3rd party book for your system and a team of people to read and go over the material to scout talent and concepts that can be run up the flagpole. OGL goes both ways.
10) Build New Settings with Allegory
Science Fiction and Fantasy are both allegorical by nature. They tackle the problems of the past, present, and future in an environment slightly removed from the real world. Tell political stories with allegory because they quickly become timeless. Whether that's Dark Sun's Climate Narrative or Star Wars' First Order. Yes. People are going to want to play in their favorite setting. Release updates for them to bring them into mechanical compliance, but just release new adventures. There's plenty of old books and lore people can use. We don't need a 6e Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.
11) Stop consulting and start hiring
WotC famously hires consultants for sensitivity and stuff. People to read some material and then approve it or explain how to 'fix' it and then they're done. Contracted for a single product, maybe brought back later. Just hire people of various ethnicities, sexualities, ability, backgrounds, genders, etc, and have them write the material in the first place. Could be a -huge- component of number 9. Get tons of people from tons of communities and produce content which takes into their experiences and perspectives from the start, together.
"Oh, but what about our overhead from all these employees?" you're WotC. You're Hasbro. Eat the slightly smaller quantity of obscene profits and focus on creating something bigger than 5e.
