I wanted to start pulling out parts of the new packet into their own threads, to focus the discussion a bit more.
I just read over the new classes, here is my initial thoughts:
General:
1) I like the varied nature of ability score increases. I think bringing that back was a good idea.
2) I would prefer them to shorten up the class descriptions with some common dialogue. For example, right now it looks like every spellcasting class works the same way. The only difference is implement and stat to affect DC. I wish they had just made one spellcasting section and just had the classes reference it instead of adding 2+ pages of copied text.
3) I like how martial classes are getting some built in protections against high level magics, such as saving throw advantages, ability to detect invisible creatures, etc. Many of the martial classes have built in ways to somewhat heal themselves or resist death.
Barbarian: Feels like absolute raw fury. If i want to play a class that just beats the crap out of anything that moves, this seems to fit the bill. My only concern is that its offense seems to be matched by an equally impressive defense and i don't know if that will balance out.
Cleric: Looks solid. Absolutely love Divine Intervention, and the sun domain looks very fun. I'm curious to see how a war domain cleric stacks up to a barbarian, but i haven't given spells their full due yet.
Druid: Wildshape seems to have more polish and i think better balance. Not much else to say here looks good so far.
Fighter: I think they are taking the fighter in an interesting direction. The barbarian is now the king of combat, but the fighter is taking on a much stronger "everyman" feel that i like. His combat abilities are solid, but action surge lets him do so many varied things in combat. Also, with so many ability improvements, he can actually have the most well rounded stats of any class if he chose to. I also wanted to comment on the gladiator. A lot of people are decrying the gladiator, and i don't see it at all, I think its a brilliant implementation.
Right now, i can deliver my full fighter power, but a few times a fight i can throw in a little extra. The die roll ties in to an opponent's defenses nicely, and no matter what i still get a benefit. And...i can "survey the battlefield" to get more dice. Simple yet brilliant, i am very excited to try this guy out.
The knight seems to perform the defender roll pretty well, though the knight's demand may still be a problem with some people's flavor scale, i think the wisdom saving throw and a factor in for immunity to charm helps curb the biggest issues. The part of the warrior i think provides the simple fighter route just fine.
Mage: Mage instead of wizard is fine by me, the names carry the same amount of flavor connotations i think. I will say i like the craft system as they have set up with scrolls and potions. It makes the items extensions of the mage, while not dominating at higher levels by having truckloads of them. At the same time, i think it also gives mechanical assistance for the magic economy. A mage's ability to churn out items to sell is now based on time, not xp which i greatly prefer. It ensures that every scroll and potion are still special, but over time does allow a mage to produce the items that are inevitably found in every dungeon. I also appreciate that high level magics are kept rare.
Last note: Illusionary Reality seems like a ton of fun. There are a million creative uses i could see for that ability.
Monk: This out of all the classes feels the weakest and least polished to me right now. The combat abilities seem to pale compared to the fighter and barbarians ability. The immunities don't compare to the barb's immunities, or the barbs/fighters resistance on ALL saving throws (or the rogue's expertise bonus to saving throws at higher levels). And poor quivering palm is such a shadow of its former self. I'm a big monk fan, and this monk is not cutting it for me at first glance, it just seems that other classes are doing it better.
Paladin: Seems decent enough at first glance. I think divine sense can have a bigger radius since the effect is much less threatening than the old detect evil. Circle of cleansing actually seems pretty nice at higher levels. My only concerns is that some of the signature paladin abilities (immune disease, fear) are very high level now. I will comment i like how the mount works right now. Its durable, and there's no long term problems with it getting killed, but it takes effectively 2 days to get another one so you can't just drop them like flies either.
Ranger: This is another meh one for me, though i've never been a big ranger fan. I will say that i like tracking, for the most part it just works. I don't like the favored enemy abilities right now, though hide in plain sight does seem very strong (if i'm reading it correctly, there is no spot check to see them, they are just hidden).
Rogue: I like how SA works with flanking....that is not quite flanking. Still requires team effort but not as restrictive. The rogue's slippery defenses are actually pretty nice, though i would switch the names evasion and uncanny dodge. I think with that switch they more closer mirror their 3e equivalent counterparts and so will be easier for people to remember.
For the assassin style, keen intellect means that high levels rogues may outgun mages for int checks (even factoring in knowledge circles), so that may be a problem. I do like that poison is now an inherent part of the assasin's repertoire. The thief rogue is actually the best diplomat with the current rules, which is a bit straining on flavor considering all of this other abilities.
Overall: Most of the classes fell like a full docket, that they have a lot of meat packed in. I don't see a lot of dead weight, the abilities seem spread out pretty well, and high level abilities feel pretty high level (though i think the "signature" high level abilities for many classes is more geared around 12th level than 20th)
I just read over the new classes, here is my initial thoughts:
General:
1) I like the varied nature of ability score increases. I think bringing that back was a good idea.
2) I would prefer them to shorten up the class descriptions with some common dialogue. For example, right now it looks like every spellcasting class works the same way. The only difference is implement and stat to affect DC. I wish they had just made one spellcasting section and just had the classes reference it instead of adding 2+ pages of copied text.
3) I like how martial classes are getting some built in protections against high level magics, such as saving throw advantages, ability to detect invisible creatures, etc. Many of the martial classes have built in ways to somewhat heal themselves or resist death.
Barbarian: Feels like absolute raw fury. If i want to play a class that just beats the crap out of anything that moves, this seems to fit the bill. My only concern is that its offense seems to be matched by an equally impressive defense and i don't know if that will balance out.
Cleric: Looks solid. Absolutely love Divine Intervention, and the sun domain looks very fun. I'm curious to see how a war domain cleric stacks up to a barbarian, but i haven't given spells their full due yet.
Druid: Wildshape seems to have more polish and i think better balance. Not much else to say here looks good so far.
Fighter: I think they are taking the fighter in an interesting direction. The barbarian is now the king of combat, but the fighter is taking on a much stronger "everyman" feel that i like. His combat abilities are solid, but action surge lets him do so many varied things in combat. Also, with so many ability improvements, he can actually have the most well rounded stats of any class if he chose to. I also wanted to comment on the gladiator. A lot of people are decrying the gladiator, and i don't see it at all, I think its a brilliant implementation.
Right now, i can deliver my full fighter power, but a few times a fight i can throw in a little extra. The die roll ties in to an opponent's defenses nicely, and no matter what i still get a benefit. And...i can "survey the battlefield" to get more dice. Simple yet brilliant, i am very excited to try this guy out.
The knight seems to perform the defender roll pretty well, though the knight's demand may still be a problem with some people's flavor scale, i think the wisdom saving throw and a factor in for immunity to charm helps curb the biggest issues. The part of the warrior i think provides the simple fighter route just fine.
Mage: Mage instead of wizard is fine by me, the names carry the same amount of flavor connotations i think. I will say i like the craft system as they have set up with scrolls and potions. It makes the items extensions of the mage, while not dominating at higher levels by having truckloads of them. At the same time, i think it also gives mechanical assistance for the magic economy. A mage's ability to churn out items to sell is now based on time, not xp which i greatly prefer. It ensures that every scroll and potion are still special, but over time does allow a mage to produce the items that are inevitably found in every dungeon. I also appreciate that high level magics are kept rare.
Last note: Illusionary Reality seems like a ton of fun. There are a million creative uses i could see for that ability.
Monk: This out of all the classes feels the weakest and least polished to me right now. The combat abilities seem to pale compared to the fighter and barbarians ability. The immunities don't compare to the barb's immunities, or the barbs/fighters resistance on ALL saving throws (or the rogue's expertise bonus to saving throws at higher levels). And poor quivering palm is such a shadow of its former self. I'm a big monk fan, and this monk is not cutting it for me at first glance, it just seems that other classes are doing it better.
Paladin: Seems decent enough at first glance. I think divine sense can have a bigger radius since the effect is much less threatening than the old detect evil. Circle of cleansing actually seems pretty nice at higher levels. My only concerns is that some of the signature paladin abilities (immune disease, fear) are very high level now. I will comment i like how the mount works right now. Its durable, and there's no long term problems with it getting killed, but it takes effectively 2 days to get another one so you can't just drop them like flies either.
Ranger: This is another meh one for me, though i've never been a big ranger fan. I will say that i like tracking, for the most part it just works. I don't like the favored enemy abilities right now, though hide in plain sight does seem very strong (if i'm reading it correctly, there is no spot check to see them, they are just hidden).
Rogue: I like how SA works with flanking....that is not quite flanking. Still requires team effort but not as restrictive. The rogue's slippery defenses are actually pretty nice, though i would switch the names evasion and uncanny dodge. I think with that switch they more closer mirror their 3e equivalent counterparts and so will be easier for people to remember.
For the assassin style, keen intellect means that high levels rogues may outgun mages for int checks (even factoring in knowledge circles), so that may be a problem. I do like that poison is now an inherent part of the assasin's repertoire. The thief rogue is actually the best diplomat with the current rules, which is a bit straining on flavor considering all of this other abilities.
Overall: Most of the classes fell like a full docket, that they have a lot of meat packed in. I don't see a lot of dead weight, the abilities seem spread out pretty well, and high level abilities feel pretty high level (though i think the "signature" high level abilities for many classes is more geared around 12th level than 20th)
