9-Dimensional Reality

[kolikeos]

space is 3-dimensional, every kobold could understand that after a logical explenation.
time is thought of as a 4th dimension, everything moves and exists in time.
some say that this is not so, that since we can't move in time, time as a dimension does not exist.
athers say that time is like a 1-dimensional line, and that there is backwards and forward, we can't move back in time and we are always on the move forward.
even if one travels back in time, which can't be done presently, he does not actually move in time, he just 'jumps' to another period in time but time continues to flow forward for him.
now consider the planes, other universes that can be breached only through powerful magics, there is a reason why those planes of existance are also called 'dimensions'.
the theory goes, that a portal merlly moves one in 'dimensional-plane-space' leaving him in the same spot but in a diffrent reality.
space and plane-space are unlimited, which puts down the theory that the planes are a ring with the prime in the center, and also that the astral is the only connection betwin planes (which is the hardest point to prove since the astral IS the connector of the planes).
look at the outer planes, they are somehow merged in on themselves so that moving through space may as well move you though plane-space.
now since space and plane-space are infinite and 3-dimensional, then so is time.
some will view movement through time-space as moving from plane to plane but it is not so, moving through time-space leaves you in the same place in space and reality but at adiffrent time, or at the same time but moving in a diffrent way then is possible while staying at a single spot in time-space.

this is the theory i intend to build my homebrew cosmology on, and i would like to hear (or more likely, read, since i can't hear you through internet-space) your thoughts on the subject.

 

[Turanil]

your thoughts on the subject.

I got a headache trying to understand it. Basing a whole homebrew on this... Mmmmh... lot of work ahead.

 

[Umbran]

Most of it is just fine. Honestly, there's no difference between the "ring" cosmology and the "multiple spacial dimensions" cosmology, in game terms. It takes magic to get from here to there. The details are flavor text.

One place where the quote goes wrong: "since space and plane-space are infinite and 3-dimensional, then so is time."

This does not follow. One does not cause the other. As presented in the given piece, there is nothing iabout the form of space that controls the form of time. Time may or may not be multidimensional.

Mind you, if time is multidimensional, that really doesn't matter too much. If a character goes travelling sidewise in time, it would be rather like he's travelling in another plane-space, since nothing else in his original plane-space interacts with those temporal directions. The only question is whether he returns to his own space-time at the samepoint from which he left.

 

[Fieari]

This is how I set it up (mostly because the following makes sense to me). In the following method of describing reality, there are functional differences between it and the ring cosmology, and it has benefits such as describing the relative difficulty between moving from here to various different theres. It also describes in more detail the degree of seperation between two locations, and also details certain powers that certain beings would possess as a matter of hand.

Assumption #1: Objects of n-dimensions must "move" through (n+1)-dimensions.

Example: A 2-d object, such as a cartoon character on the TV, exists as a series of still frames. When you place these still frames one after another, in the 3rd dimension, you get animation. 2d objects move in 3d.

Example 2: We are 3d objects. It has been postulated (by Einstine) that time is just another space, and we move through the 4th dimension.

So, to extend this analogy...

If you were suddenly made into a 4d object, what would you be moving in? Well, you'd be moving in the 5th dimension (by assumption #1). But what is the 5th dimension? Well, since 4d is time, 5d must represent a change in time... thus I present that the 5th dimension is the set of all possible timelines... all possible "What-Ifs". As you exist in 4d, your actions change events in time, causing timeline jumbles.

Now, if you were a 5d object, as described above, what would you be moving in? You'd be moving in the 6th dimension (by assumption #1). The 6th dimension must represent a change in times (plural). Thus, I would now suggest that the 6th dimension is the set of all possible rule-sets. In that while the 5th dimension encompasses everything that is possible to happen, the 6th dimension encompassing things that are completely impossible to happen here. This is kinda like a larger set of what-ifs, but instead of "What If Hitler was never born" you can have things like "What if gravity repelled instead of attracted?" or "What if magic worked, and it worked like <this>?"

Going higher in dimensions becomes exceedingly more difficult. Remember that any given dimension must contain an infinite number of n-1 dimensions within it. (3d contains an infinite number of 2d planes, 4d contains an infinite number of 3d moments, 5d contains an infinite number of 4d timelines, 6d contains an infinite number of 5d possibility-sets...) If you have any thoughts on how a 6d object could "move"... let me know.


Now, any higher-dimensional being has certain advantages over any lower-dimensional being. Let me begin with our advantages over 2d.

From our higher vantage point, we can see all of the 2d world in a single glance. While a 2d being would only be able to see things in terms of straight lines (just as we can only see things in terms of 2d planes, though we can extrapolate into 3d in our heads) we can see them. We can see past any barriers that may block a 2d person's view. We can see inside a 2d person, all their inner organs, which only work in 2d. Likewise, we can touch any object from outside the 2d person's "universe". We could take a sword and poke it through a 2d person's heart and that 2d person would be able to do NOTHING about it. There is no defense. We don't even have to be visible to the 2d person to do this. We are outside.

Likewise, we can see the past and future of a 2d person's life in a single glance (if we lay out a filmstrip on a table, for example). Assuming there are laws of physics in the 2d world, we can touch a frame near the beginning of the strip, alter something, and watch as all the future strips are effected in some interesting manner. We can tweak and weave and do all kinds of things, all sight unseen. Kinda like... gods.

Now anything we can do to a 2d creature, or a 2d plane, a 4d creature could do to us and our universe. And a 5d creature could do likewise to a 4d.... and a 6d to a 5d, and so on forever (I don't believe there is an end to the dimensional progression, though it does become nearly impossible to imagine after a certain point).

 

[Saeviomagy]

This is how I set it up (mostly because the following makes sense to me). In the following method of describing reality, there are functional differences between it and the ring cosmology, and it has benefits such as describing the relative difficulty between moving from here to various different theres. It also describes in more detail the degree of seperation between two locations, and also details certain powers that certain beings would possess as a matter of hand.

Assumption #1: Objects of n-dimensions must "move" through (n+1)-dimensions.

Example: A 2-d object, such as a cartoon character on the TV, exists as a series of still frames. When you place these still frames one after another, in the 3rd dimension, you get animation. 2d objects move in 3d.

Example 2: We are 3d objects. It has been postulated (by Einstine) that time is just another space, and we move through the 4th dimension.

So, to extend this analogy...

If you were suddenly made into a 4d object, what would you be moving in? Well, you'd be moving in the 5th dimension (by assumption #1). But what is the 5th dimension? Well, since 4d is time, 5d must represent a change in time... thus I present that the 5th dimension is the set of all possible timelines... all possible "What-Ifs". As you exist in 4d, your actions change events in time, causing timeline jumbles.

Now, if you were a 5d object, as described above, what would you be moving in? You'd be moving in the 6th dimension (by assumption #1). The 6th dimension must represent a change in times (plural). Thus, I would now suggest that the 6th dimension is the set of all possible rule-sets. In that while the 5th dimension encompasses everything that is possible to happen, the 6th dimension encompassing things that are completely impossible to happen here. This is kinda like a larger set of what-ifs, but instead of "What If Hitler was never born" you can have things like "What if gravity repelled instead of attracted?" or "What if magic worked, and it worked like <this>?"

Going higher in dimensions becomes exceedingly more difficult. Remember that any given dimension must contain an infinite number of n-1 dimensions within it. (3d contains an infinite number of 2d planes, 4d contains an infinite number of 3d moments, 5d contains an infinite number of 4d timelines, 6d contains an infinite number of 5d possibility-sets...) If you have any thoughts on how a 6d object could "move"... let me know.


Now, any higher-dimensional being has certain advantages over any lower-dimensional being. Let me begin with our advantages over 2d.

From our higher vantage point, we can see all of the 2d world in a single glance. While a 2d being would only be able to see things in terms of straight lines (just as we can only see things in terms of 2d planes, though we can extrapolate into 3d in our heads) we can see them. We can see past any barriers that may block a 2d person's view. We can see inside a 2d person, all their inner organs, which only work in 2d. Likewise, we can touch any object from outside the 2d person's "universe". We could take a sword and poke it through a 2d person's heart and that 2d person would be able to do NOTHING about it. There is no defense. We don't even have to be visible to the 2d person to do this. We are outside.

Likewise, we can see the past and future of a 2d person's life in a single glance (if we lay out a filmstrip on a table, for example). Assuming there are laws of physics in the 2d world, we can touch a frame near the beginning of the strip, alter something, and watch as all the future strips are effected in some interesting manner. We can tweak and weave and do all kinds of things, all sight unseen. Kinda like... gods.

Now anything we can do to a 2d creature, or a 2d plane, a 4d creature could do to us and our universe. And a 5d creature could do likewise to a 4d.... and a 6d to a 5d, and so on forever (I don't believe there is an end to the dimensional progression, though it does become nearly impossible to imagine after a certain point).

Sounds like gobbeldygook to me. And no, that doesn't mean I didn't understand what you were saying, just that the concept sounds like nonsense.

In terms of a D&D game, unless your game is going to hinge on wierd investigations into the fabric of reality, then none of this matters in the slightest. You'll tell the players all about this, they'll say "whatever" and ignore you. In a roleplaying game, the unobservable simply doesn't matter.

 

[Fieari]

Well, I got most of the idea from Flatland (written 1884, copyright expired, available for free here: http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/flatland/ )

It does matter for my campaign, since the scope of said campaign is mapped out roughly from 1st to upwards of 60th levels... and will involve wars and dealings with multiple dimensions.

 

[kolikeos]

from what i understand of my own writing, you exist in 3d through space and in 1d through planes and time.
to be 2d or 3d in the planes would mean that you exist on several planes at the same time (the far realm has an example of being on more then one layer at the same time, so its the same exept its planes and not just layers).
i don't really know what it will be like to be 2d or 3d in time, and also how you can move in time, not jump to a point in time like people usually think of time travel.

 

[howandwhy99]

Dangerous Journeys used a 9-dimensional cosmology/physics. I think it is was detailed either in one of the several appendices of Book 1 or maybe Book 2 (mythus magick). With any luck Mythusmage will show up and give a far better explanation (or quote) than I can.

 

[Umbran]

But what is the 5th dimension? Well, since 4d is time, 5d must represent a change in time...

1) There is no "must" here. There is no reason why that extra dimension cannot be spacial, rather than temporal.

2) And, even if it is temporal, that 5th need not represent a "change" in anything. You have three physical dimensions in your body. The 3rd one of those does not represent a change in either of the first two. So, the 5th can just as easily be another independant temporal dimension. A physicist would say that if the new dimension represents a change in an already extant quantity, that 5th does not actually represent a new independant dimension at all. It's simply an expression of how the already present dimension is poorly defined.

 

[Torm]

1) There is no "must" here. There is no reason why that extra dimension cannot be spacial, rather than temporal.

I think what he was getting at was that after you have defined your physical dimensions, however many you have, you're still going to have at least one more than defines the object's transition through time - so for a 4D physical object, that would be a 5th dimension, and for a 15D object, it would be a 16th.

2) And, even if it is temporal, that 5th need not represent a "change" in anything. You have three physical dimensions in your body. The 3rd one of those does not represent a change in either of the first two.

Without at least a potential for change, dimensionality is meaningless. I could say that I have a 4th dimension to my physical existance called "feidth", and maybe even come up with decent math for it , but unless something actually moves along a change scale of feidth like they do width, it is complete bullpocky.

Here is a list of 9 dimensions that have occurred to me for use in an RPG, none of which require extensive math and study for players :

1. Length

2. Width

3. Height

4. Transformation Through Time

5. 3D/4D Abridgement Dimension
The non-directional "direction" that magical transportation uses. Kinda like the sci-fi standard on how wormholes work - accessing an extra dimension that allows one to shortcut across the curves and folds of spacetime. Generally in games, the Astral Plane is substituted, or travel across this dimension is made instant, because the senses of normal beings rely on mechanics that wouldn't work right in a wormhole, and it would either be very boring, deadly, or possibly both. (One could go another route, though, and get extremely WEIRD, in a literary sense (strange tenses, descriptions of things occurring that are physically impossible to the extent of them seeming almost nonsensical), in describing movements and actions through this dimension - depends on how much you think your players would enjoy and or understand it.)

6. Instant, but Scaled, Transformation Through Magic
Basically, this one is assigning a magic value to points in spacetime that changes in a linear manner independent of the previous 4 dimensions listed. I think this would work, in game terms, like a systems of continuously moving "power points" that would play light havoc with attempts to use magic. You would probably want to make magic-users make a Spellcraft check or some such to determine where one currently is, with difficulty increasing based their movement through the first four dimensions since they last encountered one. Also, this would involve a random check on the part of the GM to determine if they've inadvertantly interacted with one. If players ask how it really works - metagaming - tell them to do the same math that their character does to figure it out, and they'll see.

7. Spirit Qualitative Dimension
A dimension in which the spirits of every being in existance reside - in one physical and temporal point, but transforming along the scale of the differences between those beings. (How many angels CAN fit on the head of a needle? ) Beings transform through this dimension through the quality of their spiritual existance - we'll call this mechanic "alignment".

8. Spirit Quantitative Dimension
A measure of the allocated "strength" of a person's spiritual presence at a specific alignment value, transformed through time. Alignment based creatures (demons, angels) exist without transformation through the 7th dimension, and therefore have a continual increase in the 8th, and can, in fact, willfully force accelerated increase from time to time in order to achieve superior magical effects. (See below)

(In a similar fashion to the way increased movement through space decreases movement through time, there is a relationship between the 6th, 7th, and 8th dimensions: Increases in movement through the state of spiritual quality cause changes in movement through the other two. A good in-game mechanical example of this would be the Cleric of a dark god who wishes to perform a powerful ritual might spend the weeks before doing ritual clensings and going about performing minor good deeds, or the Cleric of a good god might humble and belittle himself and perform a series of sacrifices of innocent creatures, so that the sudden dramatic transition between these preparation acts and the actual ritual through the 7th and 8th dimensions has the effect of causing a large-gravity-well-like effect in the 6th, pulling a large, helpful "power point" to them at the time of the ritual.)

9. Attaway
Any game that deals with dimensional mechanics needs a "Attaway" dimension - a dimension through which the characters are transported to another place, plane, or time, in a way that is described to them as their minds screaming that this isn't a valid direction to be transported in. Some sort of temporary or permanent sanity loss is in order.