A 10 level Prestige Class that gets 1d6 Sneak Attack damage every level: Unbalanced?

[Crothian]

The idea reminds me of a 5 level prestige class in the Green Ronin Drow book. It grants 7 casters levels over the five level but I think 1d2 hit points, 0+ int skill points, worst Bab and saves. I don't recall what the requirements are and the balance issue of that class is still in question I think.

 

[Rystil Arden]

The idea reminds me of a 5 level prestige class in the Green Ronin Drow book. It grants 7 casters levels over the five level but I think 1d2 hit points, 0+ int skill points, worst Bab and saves. I don't recall what the requirements are and the balance issue of that class is still in question I think.

That's really funny because I made up a toy example in the other thread where this class was introduced that was surprisingly similar, despite never having heard of it before from Green Ronin (my toy example was 1d4 HP 0+int SP no BAB at all and worst for all saves, but it gave two caster levels for one) to show why the SA was unbalanced.

 

[Technik4]

So, it came up in another thread that some people were suggesting that gaining 1d6 Sneak Attack every level for 10 levels is not unbalanced. The example PrC had Rogue BAB and saves, 4 skill points per level, the uncanny dodges, poison use, and the ability to switch out 3 of the 10 sneak attacks for abilities such as improved evasion, if desired.

I think it was just me. The example PrC was actually the Assasin PrC, which requires you to kill someone for no better reason than to become an assasin (thus, while you are gaining levels in it, you must be evil). I suggested a similar PrC years ago in these very forums, to likewise mixed responses. In a combat-heavy game, I can see where this may be too much. In a normal game, or a combat-lite game I don't think its unbalanced.

As I mentioned in this post: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=127621 the trade-offs between 10 levels would be:

3 Rogue Special Abilities (which could be feats)
40 Skill Points (taken from a wider skill list)

vs

Poison-Use (You do not suffer the 5% chance of poisoning yourself)
+5d6 Sneak Attack Dice

Generally, until level 20, a character taking this PrC would do 2-3 more Sneak Attack dice worth of damage. The PrC I proposed did not get 10 levels of Sneak Attack, but had the potential to gain all 10 (at the cost of any other "Assasin" ability, like Death Attack or Poison resistance).

Given the rather caustic responses in this thread, perhaps limiting the Sneak Attack to +7d6 would be enough. My rationale is that this PrC is mostly taken by NPCs in a campaign, perhaps the occasional evil campaign would have the rogue character become an assasin. This PrC idea was not supposed to be a generic 10-level SA advancement PrC, which is unfortunately what Rystil made the title imply.

I am not trolling, but in a fantasy game where PrCs like Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge are balanced, I would've liked to discuss the numbers and attitudes people would have about the proposed change.

Technik

 

[Rystil Arden]

For what its worth, the fact that you allowed the assassin to select SA at all levels or the other abilities is effectively equivalent to saying that the SA is the standard (and if its an option, you can bet it will be the standard) and you can switch out some of it for abilities like Improved Evasion.

 

[Crothian]

but in a fantasy game where PrCs like Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge are balanced, I would've liked to discuss the numbers and attitudes people would have about the proposed change.

For those two, it is all about the requirements. Both of them have to sacrifce bot hareas they specialize in to gain abilities in both areas. So, the requirements for such a class would have to be pretty costly for the benifit..

 

[Technik4]

So, the requirements for such a class would have to be pretty costly for the benifit..

Perhaps it is my own moral view, but being evil and killing someone for no reason is a significant cost in the 'soul' of your character. First it rules out a large percentage of potential adventuring companions, and second it almost certainly makes you a target for any high-and-mighty groups (The local Militia, any investigation to the death of whomever you killed, wandering paladins, etc).

I have always appreciated the idea that great power can come to anyone, if they are willing to pay the price. Unfortunately, these 'prices' usually become mechanically-based costs that stunt the flavor (and true, power) of your character. I think the Assasin PrC preserves the correct cost, but while I think spellcasting is a good variety (or path) for an assasin, I don't like it as the norm. Hence, my original revision.

Technik

 

[Crothian]

Perhaps it is my own moral view, but being evil and killing someone for no reason is a significant cost in the 'soul' of your character. First it rules out a large percentage of potential adventuring companions, and second it almost certainly makes you a target for any high-and-mighty groups (The local Militia, any investigation to the death of whomever you killed, wandering paladins, etc).

I have always appreciated the idea that great power can come to anyone, if they are willing to pay the price. Unfortunately, these 'prices' usually become mechanically-based costs that stunt the flavor (and true, power) of your character. I think the Assasin PrC preserves the correct cost, but while I think spellcasting is a good variety (or path) for an assasin, I don't like it as the norm. Hence, my original revision.

But rule advantage cannot be balnced by role playing penalties. It was a big failure in second edition. The problem is you see it as a big cost, which it can be. But in say this other guys game the price of having to kill someone and be evil is nothing and the rest of the party doesn't care. The cost becomes DM and game dependant which is not game balance. But a mechanical requirement of a feat or BAB or something is always going to be the same from gaming group to gaming group.

 

[Rystil Arden]

And you can always become evil, take the PrC, and go back to being good afterwards if you really wanted to.

 

[Technik4]

The cost becomes DM and game dependant which is not game balance.

It is, actually, still game balance. But as you say, it is dependant on non-mechanical circumstances. Hypothetically in a fantasy game we can conceive a young man who gets enticed by a devil (or demon, etc) and sells his soul for power. What was the price of his soul? How do we mechanically represent this power? These are questions that 3.x game system has trouble answering in a universal balanced way because it assumes if one person at the table made this deal, everyone would be immediately jealous of their increased power (whatever it may be). Hence we would have a level restriction so that it cannot be abused by low-level characters and an LA adjustment so numerically they would stack up with other characters of their adjusted 'level' and ruin the entire spirit of what is, essentially, something that commonly occurs in fantasy (someone of little-to-no-importance/power becomes suddenly important/powerful).

And you can always become evil, take the PrC, and go back to being good afterwards if you really wanted to.

If you kill someone with the intention to repent afterwards, how much weight do you think such repentance would have with a Deity?

 

[Rystil Arden]

It is, actually, still game balance. But as you say, it is dependant on non-mechanical circumstances. Hypothetically in a fantasy game we can conceive a young man who gets enticed by a devil (or demon, etc) and sells his soul for power. What was the price of his soul? How do we mechanically represent this power? These are questions that 3.x game system has trouble answering in a universal balanced way because it assumes if one person at the table made this deal, everyone would be immediately jealous of their increased power (whatever it may be). Hence we would have a level restriction so that it cannot be abused by low-level characters and an LA adjustment so numerically they would stack up with other characters of their adjusted 'level' and ruin the entire spirit of what is, essentially, something that commonly occurs in fantasy (someone of little-to-no-importance/power becomes suddenly important/powerful).



If you kill someone with the intention to repent afterwards, how much weight do you think such repentance would have with a Deity?

I would let someone sell their soul, but then no coming back to life, no matter what.

As for repentance, you'd be surprised at how merciful deities of mercy can be