5E A 10-Level Variant for 5E for review and work

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
@RSIxidor

Ok, so I have some time now LOL. Sigh... I hate long posts... and this is going to take a while... but here you go:

First off, thanks for the praise. I've worked hard on this and would like to see it through so people can use it--even if I don't get to. So, I'll address your points:

1. Fighters and Rogues/Extra Feats: Fighters and Rogues don't get extra feats. I don't think even in the normal 5E rogues need one. They have a lot of good and useful features, many usable each round. Fighters really only need the feats to allow them to capture combat feats, or max out the stats they need to.

My variants does not need to max out stats to have a character still be viable later on, since the emphasis is on proficiency improving instead of ability scores. So, I would rather give fighters and even rogues features to make up for their lack in other areas. My plan is the loss of a feat or two from these classes will be made up for with other "goodies." :)

Feats are optional simply because they are optional in 5E. I've never even seen a game since 3E without them, though others have claimed to.

2. I am fine with codifying 1/2 prof, prof, and 1.5 prof. I would steer clear of "talented" though since, to me anyway, any level of proficiency should represent some training. If it wouldn't mess people up, I would prefer "Proficient, Skilled, Expert" as the three levels.... As it is, I am not certain what I would use right now.

3. The Magic Resistance for Barbarians is because, in AD&D, the distained magic items and spellcasters. It wasn't until later level that they could use certain things and began to trust spellcasters really at all. Think of the "Conan" movies and his wariness of magic (the original ones, that is). If the character decides to attune to an item, he is interfering with his resistance to magic by choice and loses the ability. Note he could still use common and uncommon items, just not attuned ones and not more powerful magic items. But, yeah, I can see a lot of people not liking that--sense I am really designing this for myself... well, it starts out at least how I want it. ;)

Also, Barbarians don't cast Detect Magic, they can "detect magic" in people and things. I should probably write it up to emphasize the distinction.

4. Since you hate rolling for HP (I am JUST the opposite!), I would advise going with max HP at level one, and half (rounded up) per level for the HD after that. Pretty much as normal 5E allows.

Note: you'll have less hp since I only have 10 hit dice. Now, with the addition of a non-Constitution modifier to HP, that will make up a lot of it. A 10th level L10 character will have about 65-80% of what a normal 20th level character would have.

5. The idea with Investiture stems from the idea in 5E of levels 1 and 2 being sort of "apprentice" levels. Starting with the domain choice is fine, and then your Investiture choice sort of focuses your domain choice. I wouldn't want to move Channel Divinity to 2nd level, though. I'll have to think about it. Also, others have pointed out the overlap of weapon and heavy armor proficiency is redunant with many domains, so I'll probably end up rewriting it.

6. Ward of Faith will be written. I didn't even realize it was a carbon copy of Warding Flare.

7. If I did anything further with Wild Shape, I was thinking about a version where you could grant your Wild Shape ability or a use of it to another. I'll have to review the UA information to see if I would adopt it. I've given Druids a lot of features, so I am hesitant to give them more.

8. I went back-and-forth with Weapon Specialization. At first, it was a +2 to damage, but then I am already giving Figthers Weapon Damage as a feature for bonus damage, and Dueling would grant another +2 to damage. I thought the +2 to attack rolls would be useful for everyone who can't use the Archery style to their benefit.

I might try to come up with something entirely different since bonuses to attack rolls and damage is pretty mundane...

9. Indomitable allows you to add your proficiency bonus to a save you are not already proficient in. You get to roll, and if you think the bonus will make you succeed, you can add it, but you have to do it before you know the outcome. Say you decided to use the feature and added your proficiency bonus, but it still wasn't enough! Well, the normal part of Indomitable also allows you to reroll the failed save. So, you could roll again (with the proficiency bonus still). Does that make sense?

10. I want to give Fighters something along the lines you suggest for Intimidation. I would also like to give them features more revolving around the social and exploration pillars.

11. Knowledge is Power should be expertise. That was copied and pasted from a prior version. I'll update it and repost it eventually.

12. Purity of Spirit is pretty powerful really. It allows you to cast Protection from Evil and Good on yourself as a bonus action, and lasts 10 minutes, giving attackers (abberations, celestials, elementals, fey, fiends, and undead) disadvantage on attacks and protecting you from their charm, fright, and possession. Since most Paladins at that point will have CHA 14 or better, that is two battles against such foes per long rest you have great protection.

Now, what I might do is tier the feature, similar to Indomitable for Fighters. Maybe you would get one use per short rest, then two, and finally at 9th level three uses? I don't know, I'll have to think it over.

13. I HIGHLY suggest using a Ranger Variant. I like the UA Ranger, myself, and it what we use at our table.

14. Sorry about the Warlock and your disappointment! I'll have to delve into that in the morning as it is almost midnight here.

15. I like the direction I am going with Wizard but will likely adjust some of the features.

I thought about making Versatile Caster only one level higher slot, but that seemed too weak.

Anyway, more tomorrow and thanks again for your input! I'll review your warlock post in the morning. And FWIW, the warlock post really isn't that long. :)
 

RSIxidor

Explorer
9. Indomitable allows you to add your proficiency bonus to a save you are not already proficient in. You get to roll, and if you think the bonus will make you succeed, you can add it, but you have to do it before you know the outcome. Say you decided to use the feature and added your proficiency bonus, but it still wasn't enough! Well, the normal part of Indomitable also allows you to reroll the failed save. So, you could roll again (with the proficiency bonus still). Does that make sense?

15. I like the direction I am going with Wizard but will likely adjust some of the features.

I thought about making Versatile Caster only one level higher slot, but that seemed too weak.
9. Indomitable as stated in your text doesn't seem to indicate that clearly. I'd suggest writing it all out including the reroll, with a statement that it replaces the original feature.

15. I might not have understood something here, does spending the higher level slot upgrade the spell to a spell of that level? I thought this was more of a cost where the spell was still at its original level.
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
Here is some updates:

Barbarians have a Variant B inspried by @Esker

1574871223099.png


Some changes to Clerics:
1574871303771.png


Martial Training, Ward of Faith (no longer mimics Warding Flare), and added clarification to Watched Over.

Druid: revised Conjure Elemental so concentration is required:
1574871424368.png


Fighter: Updated Weapon Specialization and Indomitable for clarification:
1574871644397.png


That's it for now. More updates tonight or tomorrow morning. :)
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
9. Indomitable as stated in your text doesn't seem to indicate that clearly. I'd suggest writing it all out including the reroll, with a statement that it replaces the original feature.

15. I might not have understood something here, does spending the higher level slot upgrade the spell to a spell of that level? I thought this was more of a cost where the spell was still at its original level.
Let me know if the revised Indomitable is still confusing.

For Versatile Caster, the use of a higher level slot simply removes either the somatic or verbal component. You can upcast the spell still, which is why I limited it to level 5 spells and below. Once you are using a slot of 6th level or higher before versatile caster, you can't use it. I will rewrite the feature to explain that.

For example, suppose your party is being held captive by a band of orogs. There are 4 guards and more nearby. Your rogue companion is ready to get your party out, but you want to help in case the guards close by notice him. So, you Ready to cast Hold Person on the 4 close ones in case they react to the rogue, but your hands are bound.

Normally, you could upcast the spell at 5th level, targeting all 4 guards. But with your hands tied, you would also have to use versatile caster and add another spell level, making it a total of 6. So, you would need a 6th level spell slot to cast Hold Person on all 4 guards while your hands are bound.
 

RSIxidor

Explorer
@dnd4vr indomitable rewrite makes good sense

I'm still thinking about Warlock. I wanted to ask about cantrips on this, how do they scale in this system? Do they only scale a single time at level 5 or is there some other method?
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
@dnd4vr indomitable rewrite makes good sense

I'm still thinking about Warlock. I wanted to ask about cantrips on this, how do they scale in this system? Do they only scale a single time at level 5 or is there some other method?
Thanks! Glad that cleared it up. :)

I hadn't thought about cantrips, but it would probably scale around 3, 6, and 9 in L10 instead of 5, 11, and 17 as in normal L20.
 

RSIxidor

Explorer
Some ideas I had on Warlock. I'm trying to focus on features that are generically useful for Warlocks, though most of these still feel like they could be eldritch invocations. These are all based on concepts Warlocks have had in other editions. I've tried to avoid features that already exist as eldritch invocations.

Eldritch Hunger: Starting at 3rd level, you magic imbues you with power when you fight alone. You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls and to your saving throw DC when there are no closer creatures to your target. (workshop on the name, maybe, this is the one I like the least as it's almost just pure combat numbers)

Shadow Veil: Starting at 4th level, you gain the ability to shroud yourself in shadows. Once when you take the dash, disengage, or dodge action on your turn, you can cause shadows to obscure your position as a bonus action. Until the start of your next turn, attacks against you are made as if you have three-quarters cover. You regain the use of this ability when you finish a short rest. (uses/day = cha instead?, half-cover or something else instead?, does it need to use the bonus action?)

Deceive Magic Items: Starting at 5th level, you can cause magic items to trust that you are who you are not. You ignore all class, race, and spell requirements on attuning to or using a magic item.

One other thought I have is around using their pact magic spell slots to do things they can't normally do, such as maybe letting them spend two of their pact magic slots to cast a spell that they don't know but is on their spell list, or maybe overpowering a spell in some way by spending an extra slot. Since they never get more than 4 pact boon slots, seems like it could be an interesting choice between casting more or casting different or bigger.
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
Some ideas I had on Warlock. I'm trying to focus on features that are generically useful for Warlocks, though most of these still feel like they could be eldritch invocations. These are all based on concepts Warlocks have had in other editions. I've tried to avoid features that already exist as eldritch invocations.

Eldritch Hunger: Starting at 3rd level, you magic imbues you with power when you fight alone. You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls and to your saving throw DC when there are no closer creatures to your target. (workshop on the name, maybe, this is the one I like the least as it's almost just pure combat numbers)

Shadow Veil: Starting at 4th level, you gain the ability to shroud yourself in shadows. Once when you take the dash, disengage, or dodge action on your turn, you can cause shadows to obscure your position as a bonus action. Until the start of your next turn, attacks against you are made as if you have three-quarters cover. You regain the use of this ability when you finish a short rest. (uses/day = cha instead?, half-cover or something else instead?, does it need to use the bonus action?)

Deceive Magic Items: Starting at 5th level, you can cause magic items to trust that you are who you are not. You ignore all class, race, and spell requirements on attuning to or using a magic item.

One other thought I have is around using their pact magic spell slots to do things they can't normally do, such as maybe letting them spend two of their pact magic slots to cast a spell that they don't know but is on their spell list, or maybe overpowering a spell in some way by spending an extra slot. Since they never get more than 4 pact boon slots, seems like it could be an interesting choice between casting more or casting different or bigger.
Cool! Thanks for taking the time to contribute! I like these concepts but here's my take with a bit of redesign (without the fluffy goodness):

Eldritch Strikes: You gain a +1 to attack rolls if you have no allies are within 5 feet of your target. You also increase the spell save DC by +1 when you cast a spell that targets only a single creature.

Cloak of Twilight: As a reaction to being attacked or when you are the only target of a spell that requires a saving throw, you can cloak yourself in a shroud of shadow and light, temporarily obscuring your position. The attack is now made with disadvantage or you gain advantage on your saving throw against the spell. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum of 1). You regain all expended uses when you finish a short or long rest.

Adaptive Attunement: You ignore all class, race, and other requirements on attuning magical items. In addition, you can have four magical items attuned to you instead of only three.

Greater Pact Magic: You can expend an additional spell slot granted by your Pact Magic feature to cast a spell from the Warlock Spell list (up to 5th level) that you do not know. Once you use this feature you cannot use it again until you finish a long rest.

Pretty close to your ideas. What do you think?
 

RSIxidor

Explorer
Cool! Thanks for taking the time to contribute! I like these concepts but here's my take with a bit of redesign (without the fluffy goodness):

Eldritch Strikes: You gain a +1 to attack rolls if you have no allies are within 5 feet of your target. You also increase the spell save DC by +1 when you cast a spell that targets only a single creature.

Cloak of Twilight: As a reaction to being attacked or when you are the only target of a spell that requires a saving throw, you can cloak yourself in a shroud of shadow and light, temporarily obscuring your position. The attack is now made with disadvantage or you gain advantage on your saving throw against the spell. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum of 1). You regain all expended uses when you finish a short or long rest.

Adaptive Attunement: You ignore all class, race, and other requirements on attuning magical items. In addition, you can have four magical items attuned to you instead of only three.

Greater Pact Magic: You can expend an additional spell slot granted by your Pact Magic feature to cast a spell from the Warlock Spell list (up to 5th level) that you do not know. Once you use this feature you cannot use it again until you finish a long rest.

Pretty close to your ideas. What do you think?
You've maintained the flavor pretty closely and switched it up to fit your vision. All sounds good to me.

As written, Greater Pact Magic would work when multiclassing and casting a spell from a regular spell slot. Pact Magic makes everything a little tricky. If that's cool with you, fine as written. If not, probably needs to say, "when you cast a spell using a spell slot granted by your Pact Magic" or something similarly legalese as a condition at the start.

Cloak of Twilight is probably fine on just long rests. Seems very strong as short rest.
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
You've maintained the flavor pretty closely and switched it up to fit your vision. All sounds good to me.

As written, Greater Pact Magic would work when multiclassing and casting a spell from a regular spell slot. Pact Magic makes everything a little tricky. If that's cool with you, fine as written. If not, probably needs to say, "when you cast a spell using a spell slot granted by your Pact Magic" or something similarly legalese as a condition at the start.

Cloak of Twilight is probably fine on just long rests. Seems very strong as short rest.
Glad you think so. Since they are based on your ideas I don't want to ruin the flavor of them. :)

Hmm... I suppose with MCing you could use a slot from another class, but then augment it with a slot from pact magic to cast an unknown warlock spell. Personally, that wasn't my intent but I don't see playing it that way as breaking much, especially since you can only use it once per long rest. Still, thanks for pointing it out.

Yeah, CoT would be too strong on a short rest unless I limited it to once or twice per short rest. Since a lot of groups seem to take short rests pretty often, I like the long rest version instead.

Again, great ideas and I'll add them to the post this weekend when I have time. If you think of anything else, let me know! :)
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
After our session the other day, our DM told us there are basically three "adventures" left in the campaign. One player is also DMing CoS, which we will play for a while before returning to our main game. But, when the main game is over it is my turn to DM. :)

A while ago I toyed with making an L10 version of 5E and got lots of nice feedback on it. I was giving it some more thought today about implementing it for my new game and adding an aspect for magic.

Basically, the idea is spellcasters will have their normal spell slot progression, but cap out at 5th level for the spells they can learn. 6th and higher levels spells are "High Magic" and have been lost to the past ages. Such magics can be found on scrolls, etc. but casters cannot learn them. So, the higher level slots can still be used to upcast spells of level 1-5.

My concern is whether or not removing 6th and higher level spells will really hurt most casters significantly as long as I am still granting them access to the slots to upcast.

Thoughts?
 

dave2008

Legend
After our session the other day, our DM told us there are basically three "adventures" left in the campaign. One player is also DMing CoS, which we will play for a while before returning to our main game. But, when the main game is over it is my turn to DM. :)

A while ago I toyed with making an L10 version of 5E and got lots of nice feedback on it. I was giving it some more thought today about implementing it for my new game and adding an aspect for magic.

Basically, the idea is spellcasters will have their normal spell slot progression, but cap out at 5th level for the spells they can learn. 6th and higher levels spells are "High Magic" and have been lost to the past ages. Such magics can be found on scrolls, etc. but casters cannot learn them. So, the higher level slots can still be used to upcast spells of level 1-5.

My concern is whether or not removing 6th and higher level spells will really hurt most casters significantly as long as I am still granting them access to the slots to upcast.

Thoughts?
If your doing L10, why have higher level slots at all, wouldn't that make it OP in favor of the magic casting classes?
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
If your doing L10, why have higher level slots at all, wouldn't that make it OP in favor of the magic casting classes?
It is a modified L10 variant where all the classes get their features up to level 20, but compressed. The OP should explain it in more detail if you want to review it.
 
I assume you intend to make high level casters weaker compared to standard 5e, and not do so for high level non-casters?
 

dnd4vr

Tactical Studies Rules - The Original Game Wizards
I assume you intend to make high level casters weaker compared to standard 5e, and not do so for high level non-casters?
Well, by denying them 6th-9th levels spells, they will be weaker. However, by not denying them the slots, they retain the ability to casts as many spells and with upcasting the lower level spells, hopefully the change is not insurmountable. That is my concern, is it too harsh of a change?

I like it for the flavor of the world. Magic will be very rare. Many rechargeable "at dawn" items either not recharge at all or have longer recharge time (like a week or something). "High" magic spells are lost to the ages past, etc.

But, HP for all monsters is half. Characters will only have 10 levels, and so only a maximum of 10 HD as well. Thus, an upcasted Fireball at level 9 will be much more powerful than it would otherwise be in RAW.

You can look at the OP (if you haven't already) to get a feel for my intent. Will limiting spells to level 5 and under make them weaker? Of course, but the two options I have are to keep higher level slots, or give them additional spell slots for levels 1-5, as shown in the chart:

1585003362501.png


There are pro and cons to both ideas. One keep the number of spells per long rest and allows for upcasting to make lower level spells more powerful, the other grants more spells per long rest but keep the power level limited to 5th.
 

TwoSix

The hero you deserve
I'd do a little of both; add the extra slots for upcasting (or maybe special magical rituals etc.) and also increase the number of slots, albeit not as drastically as your chart. Something like 5-5-4-4-3-2-2-1-1.
 

tetrasodium

Adventurer
After our session the other day, our DM told us there are basically three "adventures" left in the campaign. One player is also DMing CoS, which we will play for a while before returning to our main game. But, when the main game is over it is my turn to DM. :)

A while ago I toyed with making an L10 version of 5E and got lots of nice feedback on it. I was giving it some more thought today about implementing it for my new game and adding an aspect for magic.

Basically, the idea is spellcasters will have their normal spell slot progression, but cap out at 5th level for the spells they can learn. 6th and higher levels spells are "High Magic" and have been lost to the past ages. Such magics can be found on scrolls, etc. but casters cannot learn them. So, the higher level slots can still be used to upcast spells of level 1-5.

My concern is whether or not removing 6th and higher level spells will really hurt most casters significantly as long as I am still granting them access to the slots to upcast.

Thoughts?
A lot of those spells are a very impressive chunk of caster power (wizard especially). Upcasting is nice & all but rarely as effective as casting a higher level spell & evel more rarely able to duplicate the effects of a nondamage spell of a higher level. The whole lost to past ages thing doesn't really work for every setting though... SK's in darksun can absolutely cast level 6+ spells... Keith Baker has flatly said about eberron that places like the arcanix have spellbooks with spells nobody living can cast (the last war took a toll) but plenty of scholars & arcanists can read them to understand the theories behind how those spells they cant cast actually work plus that The Dragons can cast eleventh & higher level spells.. For sigil it's just silly to suggest those spells were lost to a past age... etc.

If you wanted to put some limit on them you could tie casting them to the construction of a siege staff, eldritch machine, or a greater ritual that takes spell level hours to complete & compensate the awkwardness with some other power bump?

I guess that I'm not sure the point of limiting to 5th level spells & below.
 

dave2008

Legend
No problem. Thanks for taking the time. So what are your thoughts about restricting fullcasters to only level 1-5 spells?
I don't think it is an issue. Casters will still have the same damage potential, they just will not have the same utility (which other classes don't have, so it might be more balanced). I would suggest that maybe you can allow high level spells as rituals. You mentioned that they exist, but couldn't be cast? I would allow casting them as rituals. That way you can control what spells they get and when they get them. I don't remember the 5e rule, but you could make them ritual scrolls that are consumed when the ritual is complete.
 
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