D&D 5E (2014) A 10-Level Variant for 5E for review and work

[Esker]

As far as the balance goes, you are gaining two traditional levels for two traditional levels.

How so? Say I'm a rogue and I'm deciding between taking the swashbuckler subclass and multiclassing into fighter. If I take swashbuckler, then I get the subclass features attached to the traditional level 3. If I multiclass, I get the benefits of the L10 1st level of fighter, which is more or less worth two traditional levels. Right? Or am I misunderstanding?

 

[Blue]

Generally, MAD classes have more powerful abilities baked into their class, and SAD classes tend to be more focused.

The idea in L10 is for ability scores to not be as vital. Since proficiency goes up a bit more, it isn't necessary for ability scores to max out to 18 or 20. A character at 10th level with having 16 from 1st level on will still get a +11 on checks, etc., in balance with normal 5E.

Which is exactly why I'm pointing it out - those more powerful abilities are often limited to Ability Mod usses. With the expectation that at higher levels there will be those more uses.

The increase in proficiency that you are talking about does nothing to level that.

Getting a feat that adds a point here a couple times might get you up to 18 or eventually even 20, but the point is you don't have to do it to stay competitive.

Doesn't address the point I was making, that a MAD character might need a +4-5 total just to get to 16s in three abilities scores. And if there are uses per day linked to them, that's 2 uses until Tier 3-4 of play? That's a pretty large setback compared to base play.

 

[DND_Reborn]

How so? Say I'm a rogue and I'm deciding between taking the swashbuckler subclass and multiclassing into fighter. If I take swashbuckler, then I get the subclass features attached to the traditional level 3. If I multiclass, I get the benefits of the L10 1st level of fighter, which is more or less worth two traditional levels. Right? Or am I misunderstanding?

Ah, I see your point. That depends a lot on what is more important to you as a player...

Using your example:

You are a Rogue and at level 1 can choose Swashbuckler, gaining Fancy Footwork and Rakish Audacity, or you can choose "Fighter" as your subclass, gaining a Fighting Style and Second Wind (1 use). Is the movement value of Fancy Footwork and the Initiative bonus for Rakish Audacity, not to mention not needing advantage for your Sneak Attack, worth the Fighting Style and bonus HP for Second Wind?

What about those later features of Swashbuckler? You can't get them without getting the earlier ones. Some of those more powerful subclass features are worth more than the lower level class features, but it is all up to the player.

So, it all comes down to choices. That is why if you take "Fighter" as your subclass, you never gain subclass features of a Fighter as well.

 

[Esker]

You are a Rogue and at level 1 can choose Swashbuckler, gaining Fancy Footwork and Rakish Audacity, or you can choose "Fighter" as your subclass, gaining a Fighting Style and Second Wind (1 use).

Ah, so to balance this you effectively delay the fighter's action surge feature to L10 level 2, instead of giving it at level 1 like you would if L1 was just a combination of the traditional levels 1 and 2. This way, it really is one level worth vs one level worth. And then the next subclass feature is balanced against L10 lvl 2, which is effectively like taking fighter to the traditional 4th level, but since Fighter 3 and 4 are just subclass feature and ASI, you're really only getting another one level worth of stuff (action surge). Does it work that way throughout?

In the case of multiclassing into a caster, your spell progression really does go two traditional levels at a time, but on the flip side you miss out on subclass features. Whereas if you multiclass out of a caster, you still keep your full spell progression, only giving up subclass features in exchange for the next level in your secondary class. So maybe that's ok?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Which is exactly why I'm pointing it out - those more powerful abilities are often limited to Ability Mod usses. With the expectation that at higher levels there will be those more uses.

The increase in proficiency that you are talking about does nothing to level that.

Oh, sure. I suppose I could simply link them to proficiency. Your uses per short/long rest or whatever could be based on the ability score (as normal) or half proficiency bonus (round down), whichever is greater. That would help with MAD classes as well, so a Paladin with CHA 14 at Level 10 could still use Cleansing Touch 4 times before a long rest, instead of only 2 his CHA would limit him to.

Doesn't address the point I was making, that a MAD character might need a +4-5 total just to get to 16s in three abilities scores. And if there are uses per day linked to them, that's 2 uses until Tier 3-4 of play? That's a pretty large setback compared to base play.

Most "per use" abilities are tied to a single ability in a class. Either way, I think the half proficiency uses suggested above would fix the issue. What do you think?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Ah, so to balance this you effectively delay the fighter's action surge feature to L10 level 2, instead of giving it at level 1 like you would if L1 was just a combination of the traditional levels 1 and 2. This way, it really is one level worth vs one level worth. And then the next subclass feature is balanced against L10 lvl 2, which is effectively like taking fighter to the traditional 4th level, but since Fighter 3 and 4 are just subclass feature and ASI, you're really only getting another one level worth of stuff (action surge). Does it work that way throughout?

In the case of multiclassing into a caster, your spell progression really does go two traditional levels at a time, but on the flip side you miss out on subclass features. Whereas if you multiclass out of a caster, you still keep your full spell progression, only giving up subclass features in exchange for the next level in your secondary class. So maybe that's ok?

Yes, I tried to keep single levels from being too powerful and moves some features around to try to balance those out. Is it perfect? Hardly!!!

But, this is the first draft so I hope it is a good starting point. Again, only if I get this to playtest stage will I get an idea for if everything is viable or not. I am sure it will require some balance changes, but hopefully fewer than more.

 

[Sadras]

This is primarily an exercise in game design since I do enjoying tinkering with 5E (I am a gnome at heart! )

+1 for Gnome love. Too many tinkerer-haters on these boards.

The big design elements are removing ASIs and increasing proficiency so the game remains balanced in terms of every thing else. Also, I think characters have too many HP, especially at higher levels. Finally, many games seem to teeter off before reaching higher levels so those features are never or hardly ever experienced.

Defense IS mostly static in 5E, as reflected in the idea that ever increasing HP makes up for it. I have removed some of the HP, but added an AC bonus by level. Again, I am trying to rebuild character classes while keeping it balanced with the rest of 5E.

My suggestion
1. Remove ASI (Replace with Feats - now compulsory)
2. Earn every 2nd level for HP (every level earn HD)
3. Rework the Proficiency Bonus (+2 to +8) for the 20 levels.

 

[DND_Reborn]

@Blue :

How is this?

 

[Esker]

@Blue :

How is this?

View attachment 116037

Half proficiency won't exceed +3 until Level 8, which is like level 15 normally. If you're not taking multiple feats that increase your primary stat right off the bat, that seems like a long time to wait to get that extra use.

One thing that could help is to decouple half-feats from the stats they raise. That is, you could say that if a feat grants +1 to an ability score, they can put it wherever they want.

 

[DND_Reborn]

+1 for Gnome love. Too many tinkerer-haters on these boards.

My suggestion
1. Remove ASI (Replace with Feats - now compulsory)
2. Earn every 2nd level for HP (every level earn HD)
3. Rework the Proficiency Bonus (+2 to +8) for the 20 levels.

Thanks for the Gnome-love acknowledgement.

I assume your suggestions are for keeping the 20-level current system since pretty much everything you have there is what I've done in effect.

House-wise we already do the +8 proficiency cap using a progression of +2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, ..., 8, 8, 8. We like it and I've put it into the L10 because I think it works better than the +6 RAW cap.