A 4e Bar Fight...how to do it?

[maddman75]

Telling the PC's " OK its barfight time, you need 5 successes before three failures to avoid being knocked out." is pretty much deciding thier course of action for them.

Whenever there is a situation that the DM envisions happening and events are rigged so that the situation HAS TO HAPPEN, we are on the choo choo train even if it is a short commuter trip.

I would make the difference that even in lawless areas, certain restrictions in bar brawling are recognzied. If you want to pull out your sword and spells while everyone else is using fists and mugs, go for it. But that means they're going to pull out their swords, or call out the guards/local strong man.

Bar Brawl = Skill Challenge
Pulling blades = regular combat system

Up to the PCs how they want to go with it. Even if you start out with 'some dudes start a huge bar brawl!', they have their choices

- enter the brawl
- pull swords and start a regular fight
- run away
- something else

 

[Stoat]

We want to fight them, not barfight them should be an option.

Agreed. If the players want to use the combat rules, they should be able to. If the DM wants to impose some consequence for using the combat rules instead of a skill challenge, with reason, he should be able to do that.

The OP asked for suggestions for bar fighting outside of the standard rules.

Worth keeping in mind. The OP said he wants something faster than a typical 4E combat that doesn't necessarily require a battlemat. He also wants to avoid "swords and spells" such as would be found in a normal combat.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I would make the difference that even in lawless areas, certain restrictions in bar brawling are recognzied. If you want to pull out your sword and spells while everyone else is using fists and mugs, go for it. But that means they're going to pull out their swords, or call out the guards/local strong man.

Bar Brawl = Skill Challenge
Pulling blades = regular combat system

Up to the PCs how they want to go with it. Even if you start out with 'some dudes start a huge bar brawl!', they have their choices

- enter the brawl
- pull swords and start a regular fight
- run away
- something else

Yes exactly. Lawless usually means there are no legal implications (or a hot Aussie actress ) but that doesn't mean there are no consequences, some of which could have the PC's wishing jail were an option.

 

[Nebulous]

Maddman beat me to it. What you're describing is a skill challenge. Failure means the PC's are knocked out. Success means they win the fight, escape the bar, etc. etc.

Problem is, the players are going to want to fight it out using the combat rules. It's a natural instinct, and I know enough of your players to know that's where they'll want to go.

A skill challenge (a) gets you away from the battlemat and (b) helps alleviate the problem Umbran pointed out re: the disparity between martial and other characters. It'll probably move faster too.

Assuming you went that way, I'd be ready to run it as a straight combat if that's how the PC's wanted to do it. I'd figure out some consequence that would arise if they went to the battlemat, and I'd communicate it to them clearly. Something like, "right now, this is a nonlethal barroom brawl. I'm running it as a skill challenge. If you want to fight it out on the battlemat we can, but (a) you risk death and (b) you'll be marked as dangerous killers by the town guard."

Also, I've got a nice grubby bar map that I can email you.

wow, lot of posts, i wasn't able to check again until now.

Ok, a skill challenge, i can roll with that. i've had some success with Obsidian in the past, but yeah, players are gonna want to turn the tide with some daily powers they have in reserve.

And yes, i'll take that grubby bar map.

 

[Nebulous]

After reading the whole thread, a couple good points came up. If the PCs insist on using weapons to really put the smack down on these ruffians, there will be repercussions. "Real combat" = Death, but the bar brawl is just bruises and damaged merchandise. Forgivable, and in the context of what i was thinking, even considered "entertainment" by the locales. Killing said locals is not considered entertainment.

 

[jbear]

Do the PCs have a goal or is it just a random place and a random event?

If they had a goal, say... reach the VIP area upstairs to talk to the head of the local Mafia, then i think a skill challenge would have a very clear sense of purpose (other than just beat the living heck out of anything that moves); in saying that you could have the skill challenge side dedicated to moving through the area quickly and the combat side going as well to knock obstacles (brawlers) out of the way.

Lets say all the brawlers are minions.
For a group to advance it has to knock down at least two minions in a round.
If achieved the next round they can make a skill check to move (athletics: jump over a table acrobatics: swing from a chandalier). Let the players be creative with their use of the terrain here... i.e. the wizard uses arcana to make his mage hand send the hot soup flying at the tangle of bodies in front of him. They scramble back in pain allowing him to calmly walk a good 4 squares towards the stairs. Degree of success and creativity could vary how quickly they advance.

Success by more than 5 could also allow an attack as part of the movement: the rogue swings above the heads of the patrons hanging from the chandelaire and kicks the burly butcher in the face before he nimbly lands on his feet on the other side of the table.

If the group sticks together, advancing should be fairly quick and simple. If they split up they might find it increasingly difficult to take down 2 minion brawlers in a round to be able to advance.

You could even have a random event table that you roll on each round for out of the blue things to happen that could add to the fun/danger/difficulty: say a halfling takes a dive and his bag of marbles spills across the floor...

If you had say 6 factions involved in the fight, each with a different colour code, at the beginning of each round you could roll a Saving Throw for each faction. Success would mean that all or some of the downed brawlers/minions of that faction get back to their feet and rejoin the fight.

You could use the massive inn from the Village of Hommlet, make it three storied (laser copies) and have exciting ways for the PCs to get from one level to another, to make it more interesting/excitng/difficult to reach the VIP area of the Mafia Boss, who of course is watching the preceedings bemused and judging the PCs efforts.

If you don't want it to draw out too long you can decide when they have made enough successes or failures to impress/annoy the Mafia Boss who at that point raises his voice and stops the Pub Brawl in its tracks. Success or failure on the skill challenge greatly influencing his reactions towards the PCs.

Of course, you probably don't have a Mafia Boss that the PCs are trying to reach in your game, but I thing having a goal for them to achieve brings life to the situation, and the Mafia boss concept is easily applied to whatever is appropriate for your game.

From personal experience, fights and simultaneous skill challenges are awesome fun!

 

[caelum]

For those of you who are community supporters, there is an article on running bar fights in the exclusive Kobold Quarterly EN World Special collection (originally from KQ#8. Actually I wrote it! The mechanics are built around 3.5, but hopefully it contains some location/event/hazard/skill challenge flavor inspiration for any edition.

 

[Nebulous]

Do the PCs have a goal or is it just a random place and a random event?

Of course, you probably don't have a Mafia Boss that the PCs are trying to reach in your game, but I thing having a goal for them to achieve brings life to the situation, and the Mafia boss concept is easily applied to whatever is appropriate for your game.

From personal experience, fights and simultaneous skill challenges are awesome fun!

I had no plans for a Mafia boss, this in an event down the road a ways. However, now that you mentioned it, i do like the idea of an ulterior goal besides just "fist fighting".

 

[darjr]

I think I would do a couple of things.

I would allow for the possibility for combat, but with a skill challenge. Maybe two optional ones. The first would be to end the fight quickly, like a group intimidate during the combat. The second option would be a skill challenge to escalate the fight until the whole bar is in chaos, then they could just slip out.

That way you can end the actual combat phase with the end of either skill challenge. Also you could get away without doing anything 'tactical' on the mat.

I might even have the option for a skill challenge to avoid the whole thing, like the intimidate one during combat but it occurs just before when the fight would normally start.

I absolutely would let the players take the lead, and if I wanted to restrict weapons I'd have them taken at the entrance.

edit: Oh, yea, I'd include lots and lots of minions.