A Bonus Sorcerer spells known feat?

[The Sigil]

I believe that the Draconic Bloodline feat came from dragon magazine # 311. At least, that's what I heard.

Nope. From the Netbook of Feats by the Fantasy Community Council. Try the link I provided with the original. Did I mention it's FREE?

Mongoose's Ultimate Feats book incorporated Feats from the Netbook of Feats, so they can be found in both sources, but they appeared in the Netbook first and the Netbook costs a lot less than UF. And if you're reading this, you can likely go get your own copy right now online - no messy going to the store.

Here is the link again:

http://www.fancc.net/

And here's Draconic Bloodline:

DRACONIC BLOODLINE [General: Magical, Trait]
The blood of Dragons truly runs through your veins.
Benefit: You have a remarkable affinity for Arcane spell magic: add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against your Arcane spells. You may also treat the Sorcerer class as a favored class in addition to any other favored class that you gain by race.
Special: You can only take this feat at 1st level and this feat stacks with the Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus feats. Though you have Draconic ancestry you still gain the regular bonuses and penalties of a typical member of your race. You are also vulnerable to attacks that target your unique Draconic heritage (like dragonbane weapons) even though you are only distantly related to Dragonkind.
DRACONIC BLOODLINE Copyright 2001, Eric D. Harry
Balance: 4.10 (Purp 4.25, Pow 4.25, Port 3.50, Comp 4.00, Rule 4.50)

Keep in mind this was balanced against 3.0 Spell Focus (+2 to DC). So it gives half the DC boost as Spell Focus and lets you have Sorcerer as a favored class. The downside is that you are vulnerable to special attacks (like Dragonbane weapons) that target dragons. Seems like a decent trade-off to me.

--The Sigil

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

If Extra Spell is lame, make it grant more spells, like 2 spells, or 4 spells, or 1 spell/4 levels, or something that is easily controlled.

If you base it on Charisma, then the feat doesn't determine it's own power, Charisma does.

(That would be a worse idea in 3.0, where stat-boosting cheese was way too easy to do.)

 

[apsuman]

Let's look at the numbers. We'll assume a 10th-level sorcerer with a Charisma of 21. For the cost of one feat, his Cha score would allow him to know the following additional spells:
1st - 2
2nd - 1
3rd - 1
4th - 1
5th - 1

This gives the same sorcerer the following total known spells:
0 - 9
1st - 7
2nd - 5
3rd - 4
4th - 3
5th - 2

Does this really look unbalancing? And for those who think so, how many have actually playtested this?

I have not play tested this but lets think here.
Spells Before Feat After Feat
1st 5 7
2nd 4 5
3rd 3 4
4th 2 3
5th 1 2
Total 15 21 40% more spells known.

If you start with an 18 CHA, increase it at 4th and 8th level. Get a cloak of charisma +2, heaven forbid a wish or a book and you are at 22 or 23, and instead of 40% more spells you have even more.

Now, I don't know exactly how to compare the sorcerer to other classes without getting into apples and oranges. But... if a fighter had 40% more feats or 40% more attacks. Or a barbarian had 40% more rages (or each rage were 40% better), or the rogue got 5d6 +40% more for each sneak attack, or the bard got uh... um... ok the bard could get 40% better but still a 40% improvement for the cost of ONE FEAT.

Now, you run your games the way you want, I want you to have fun and be happy. But I really believe that this sort of feat would really unbalance the sorcerer class.


g!

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Now, I don't know exactly how to compare the sorcerer to other classes without getting into apples and oranges. But... if a fighter had 40% more feats or 40% more attacks. Or a barbarian had 40% more rages (or each rage were 40% better), or the rogue got 5d6 +40% more for each sneak attack...

...Now, you run your games the way you want, I want you to have fun and be happy. But I really believe that this sort of feat would really unbalance the sorcerer class.

g!

You raise an interesting point, but I don't agree that allowing sorcerers a few more spells to choose from is as powerful as some of your examples.

For instance, giving a fighter 40% more feats (I'm assuming bonus feats here), then lower-level fighters will be much more flexible and deadly. At high-levels we would see fighters with essentially all bonus feats. To me, such a change is considerably more powerful than giving a sorcerer a few extra spells known, but YMMV.

Looking at the barbarian, would giving him 40% more rages per day make a big difference? Depends on the campaign: in a campaign where parties typically only fight a few times each day, the barbarian would likely rage in every battle. In a campaign where the party does not control the pace of battle, where they may fight a dozen or more battles in one 24 hour period, the change may not be so egregious (though still a too much for me).

Looking at it another way, I like to increase the sorcerer's known spells because I want to avoid the "one-trick pony" aspect of the class. I see that as a problem with the "fun" factor in playing sorcerers. I don't feel that fighters need more feats to be fun to play. Nor do barbarians or rogues need to be 40% better at raging or sneak attacks respectively. I do feel that sorcerers need more flexibility and this is just one way to do it.

OTOH, having read the other responses, I think the case has been made that basing bonus spells on Cha is too problematic, especially as a feat. I'm leaning toward a couple of the other suggestions: a flat bonus of 2 or 3 spells known per feat, or limiting the bonus spells to a bloodline of some sort. Keep the ideas coming!

...or the bard got uh... um... ok the bard could get 40% better but still a 40% improvement for the cost of ONE FEAT...

Yep, bard's need all the help they can get...but that's a whole 'nother can of wyrms.

 

[The Sigil]

I have not play tested this but lets think here.
Spells Before Feat After Feat
1st 5 7
2nd 4 5
3rd 3 4
4th 2 3
5th 1 2
Total 15 21 40% more spells known.

If you start with an 18 CHA, increase it at 4th and 8th level. Get a cloak of charisma +2, heaven forbid a wish or a book and you are at 22 or 23, and instead of 40% more spells you have even more.

Now, I don't know exactly how to compare the sorcerer to other classes without getting into apples and oranges. But... if a fighter had 40% more feats or 40% more attacks. Or a barbarian had 40% more rages (or each rage were 40% better), or the rogue got 5d6 +40% more for each sneak attack, or the bard got uh... um... ok the bard could get 40% better but still a 40% improvement for the cost of ONE FEAT.

Now, you run your games the way you want, I want you to have fun and be happy. But I really believe that this sort of feat would really unbalance the sorcerer class.


g!

Check yourself there, for a minute.

Increasing spells known by 40% does not necessarily increase the character's combat power by 40% (though increasing spells PER DAY by 40% probably does). Please read that again to make sure you caught that.

After all, if "spells known" was so overpowering, wizards would be horrifically broken! They can, in theory, know an INFINITE number of spells per level.

No, this is a more subtle change than that. Let us take the example of a 4th-level nonhuman fighter, who has 5 feats. An extra 40% of Feats Known would be 2 extra feats... but he can only USE 5 of those feats at a time. But wait, it costs a Feat to pick up that ability to "USE" 5 feats at a time (the "Fighter Heritage" Feat).

So we're looking at the analogous fighter being a 6th level nonhuman fighter who has 7 Feats plus the two "Bloodline" Feats (remember, it takes a "throwaway" Feat to pick this one up, so the real cost is two Feats) but can only have 5 of those non-Bloodline Feats "Active" at any given time.

He would be compared in power to a 6th level nonhuman fighter who has 7 Feats, *all* of which are "Active" at any given time. Is THAT horribly unbalancing? I'm not so sure. The second fighter has access to the SAME NUMBER of Feats, and can use less!

By extension, you compare a 12th level nonhuman fighter with 14 Feats of which only 10 can be active plus the Bloodline Feats
with a 12th level human fighter with 12 Feats, all of which are active. The first fighter has more feats to choose from, but less are active at any given moment. In other words, it's the old, "give up power in your chosen specialty for versatility argument."

Look at it again. There is a subtle power shift - in the form of greater flexibility - but the total number of "uses" available for the ability is unchanged. The difference is in the number of ways each "use" can be expended. And that is much more subtle than the raw 40% figure.

Of course, sorcerers are slightly different than fighters, but when you consider that this Feat could have been used for the (old) Spell Focus or for an Item Creation Feat (which I consider an essential for a sorcerer) - coupled with the fact that Feats are a much scarcer resource for Sorcerers than for Fighters, I wonder if it is not, in fact, all that unbalancing.

FWIW, my first reaction was, "wow, that Feat's kind of unbalanced!" On further inspection, I'm not so sure. The two Feats required to get this benefit, for the sample 10th level sorcerer you used, represents (if he's not human) 50% of his available Feats. That's greater than the 40% you're worried about. (If he is human, it's still 40% of his available Feats).

--The Sigil

 

[Stormborn]

To chime in on the discussion of Bloodlines and bonus spells known:

When I wrote the Arcane Ancestry article that appeared in Dragon 311 I primarilly wanted to add flavor to the sorcerer class. (At the time I worte it I was unaware of the other similar feat sets floating around, which from what I have seen are just as servicable, but probablly its best to choose one system and not mix and match.) Realizing that gives a big bonus to a sorcerer I did a couple of things to limit the overall benifit in an attempt at balance. First I tried to pick spells that were not as likely to be a sorcerer's first choice. Adimtedly this was not always possible given the spells at particular level and the theme of the bloodline. I also restricted the other kinds of spells a sorcerer could know, Earth Blooded sorcerers can't cast air spells for example. So you get more of a certain kind of spell, at the expense of flexibility. I am working on a follow-up BTW, but can't really say more than that.

 

[Nightfall]

BLESSED OF MESOS!!! Hands down what ANY true sorcerer worth his salt wants!

 

[apsuman]

First of all, I *LOVE* sorcerers. They are my favorite class to play as is.

I even like a straight Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple.

That said, I still think they are under powered, not too much, but still underpowered.

My solution would be to give them bonus feats like a wizard. One at level 1 and then every (is it four?) so many levels thereafter. This would accomplish a couple of things.

Sorcerers could have Eschew Material Components feat at level 1 (or they could choose another feat), many people just give sorcerers that feat now for free.

Second, it gives the sorcerer more flexability without breaking the game, IMHO. Extra Spell all of a sudden looks more attractive if you know that you are going to be able to pick up empower next level.

Anyway, this is an answer to a question nobody asked, so I will stop now.

g!

 

[Dr. Zoom]

I always thought sorcerers should start each new spell level with 2 spells known instead of 1. So I use my own spells known chart for sorcerers IMG. Spell levels 1 through 8 follow the pattern 2-3-3-4-4-4-5, with 8th level maxing out at 4 known spells. 9th level spells known are 2-3-4 and cantrips are 5-5-6-6-7-7-8-8-9-9-9-10-10-10-11-11-11-12-12-12. This is similar to Monte Cook's spells known chart found in his Book of Eldritch Might II.

 

[Garmorn]

In the Ultimate Book of Feats there are two such feats. They are very similar. The basic are as follows.

The first one is:

Know Spells Focus

Prerequities: Spontanious spellcaster level 8+

The other is Ehanced Draconic Bloodline

Prerequities: Drogonic Bloodine, ability to cast arcane spells with out prepration (like bard or sorcerer).

I have allowed Know Spell Foucus and have found it to be of little value. By the time they are 9th lvl and can aquire this feat the extra spells known have a minor affect on power of the caster.