A call for rampant speculation and suggestions on classes.

[triqui]

I agree with this. Assassin could/should be a scheme though. But yes rouges should be able to inflict conditions with sneaky targeted strikes and assassins should inflict be better at bigger damage. I also like to see assassin abilities tied to to use of poison.

Problem with that is you either give assasins poison the ability to affect everything (which causes suspension of disbelief issues) or you make it a gimped class against 50% of the monsters (undeads, demons, devils, constructs, elementals, several outsiders... )

 

[Raith5]

Problem with that is you either give assasins poison the ability to affect everything (which causes suspension of disbelief issues) or you make it a gimped class against 50% of the monsters (undeads, demons, devils, constructs, elementals, several outsiders... )

Fair point. This point pushes me more to thinking about assassins as a specialization - something that makes sense in some campaigns but not in others. Or you could also add in some of the arcane spells that were given in 3rd ed assassins (not sure about 4th ed abilities).

 

[triqui]

Fair point. This point pushes me more to thinking about assassins as a specialization - something that makes sense in some campaigns but not in others. Or you could also add in some of the arcane spells that were given in 3rd ed assassins (not sure about 4th ed abilities).

This is the point. If you give them powerful poisons, and base the class around them, they'll be rather overpowered in a human based campaign like The Game of Thrones, but basically useless in a undead heavy Ravenloft campaign, being somewhat balanced in a more mixed campaign were you have a bit of everything.

Making Sneak Attack the main class skill (and making sneak attack work against almost anything) solve that. Make poison a nice add, with a resource cost attached (expensive gold cost for example) to round it up, but do not base the class on it.

 

[steeldragons]

Note: all of the below are looking at things through a "default class" lens. Variants of any or all of the classes are obviously going to be possible. I'm just thinking in the "without having to add or change anything" vein.

Acrobat: a Scheme or Specialty available to Assassins, Rogues or Fighters.

Assassin: Best at killing. How?
--Rogue class = Skills heavy/dependent: Stealth, Poison Knowledge/Use/Creation, Disguise, Spying (so needs things like opening locks and removing as well as laying traps) and Information Gathering, etc...etc...
--Sneak/Kill Attack...how to make it better/more effective [or even if it should/has to be?] than a Thief-Rogue's I don't know.
--More Str. than Dex. dependent, better armor and weapon options?

Avenger: a Specialty available to Assassins, Fighters, Rogues, Rangers or Paladins.

Bard: Best at filling in the gaps/jack-of-all-trades. How?
--Rogue class = Skills heavy/dependent: Stealth, any number of Knowledge/Lore, Healing, Performance: Music, etc.. etc...and/or lump it all together under a "Bardic Lore" package/mechanic.
--Bardic Magic/Spell[song] use: dependent on their music with a Bard spell list mixing: illusions and enchantment (mage-lite), some minor healing and bolstering (cleric-ite) and mostly druidic/natural type magic (abandon the strong "Arcane" affiliation of former editions for their druidic origins).
--choice of any Rogue, Druid or Fighter specialties.

Cavalier: a specialty available to Fighters and Paladins.

Cleric: Best at bolstering/support. How?
--Channel Divinity: for extra powers "per day" that are related to their deity's domains/spheres of influence.
--Domains: extra spells, feats, and/or powers (already in).
--Clerical/Divine Spell use: "general" cleric magic [usable by any cleric] is focused more on protection and support (healing, resisting/dispelling natural or magical harm or effects, etc.)

Druid: Best at advocating and protecting nature/the natural world. How?
--Natural/Druidic spell use (their own spell list again, some overlap with mages, some overlap with clerics, but a lot that are just their own). It emulates some of the clerical magic "support/bolster" spells (minor healings, neutralizing poison, purifying food and water, etc.), some of the mage's command of the elements, and connecting/influencing weather, animals and plants, over which neither clerics or mages (MOST of them, anyway) have very much sway
--Use the Channel Divinity Mechanic (call it "Channel Nature" or whatever) to utilize (and LIMIT!) a list of various extra "powers": Shapeshifting being the most obvious, resistances or immunities (possibly as an area effect) to natural energy attacks (fire/cold/etc), Speaking with animals, (maybe commanding elementals?) etc...[if you must insist on a "Summoning [Nature's Ally]" kinda thing be built into the druid for the default, then put it HERE! The protectors/advocates of the natural world should NOT be endlessly conjuring animals to go to their doom/do the druid's fighting for them. I have ALWAYS hated that!]
--Something similar to the paladin's "Detect Opposition/Danger/spider sense" kind of mechanic that applies only to "disturbances" to the surrounding natural world (detecting undead or demons or a particularly "Evil" or "Holy" artifact in the area for example, something that throws off the "Balance" of the natural world).

Fighter: Best at fighting. How?
--best/all armor and weapon options
--choice of fighting styles/manuevers/specialties (including weapon specialization) or all three if they make them different things, that allow for any warrior archetype/concept.
--Combat Superiority (which we already know about/already in)

Illusionist [and Necromancer, et al. Specialist mages]: a Specialty/"Tradition" available for Mages.

Mage [nee Wizard]: Best at harnessing/using arcane magic. How?
--Mage/Arcane Spell Use: fire n' forget/increasing spell slots as one studies and learns more, capable of wielding more power.
--Mage specialties: for the Illusionists, Necromancers, etc...extra/specific spell lists and special "powers" related to their chosen "tradition."
--Gain more/better magic-specific "skills" or "feats": like Reading and Detecting Magic being at-will things, spontaneous casting of lower level spells as higher level spells are gained, Counterspelling, maybe incorporate some "metamagic" type of abilities at higher levels.

Paladin: Best at championing (a cause, a god, religion, alignment, whatever). How?
--[Holy] Favors: extra damage smites, laying on hands, relevant limited use/"per day" abilities relevant to their "patron" (nature/fluff of the paladin is a table-by-table decision).
--Boons: Detection of "Danger/Opposition", Immunity to Disease and Poison, relevant powers from their "patron" (be it a deity or ideal), etc...
--choose from any Fighter AND/OR Cleric specific Specialties.

Ranger: Best at ranging. How?
--Skills heavily built into the class, regardless of background or specialty: Tracking, Survival, Nature Lore, Herbalism, Healing, Geographic or Environmental Lore, Local History, etc..etc...
--Quarry/Favored Enemy mechanics that apply to a regional foe with whom the ranger has specific experience studying, hunting and fighting. Start with one and add to the list as you level/have experience with various creatures (NOT anybody I happen to be fighting at the moment...now they're "quarry" for extra damage? No thanks.)
--Favored Environment/Terrain mechanics [Urban, Arctic, Desert, Marshlands, Woodlands, etc. etc.] that give additional terrain/environment-based skills or "feats". Start with 2, maybe?, and add others as you level/experience other regions/terrain types.

Rogue/Thief: Best at exploring. How?
--Rogue = Skill heavy/dependent...all about the skills. Stealth, Picking Pockets, locks, traps, etc. etc. would seem to be the most common/default. But also such things as Information gathering, Local history/gossip/lore, Rope Use, Climbing...Any sort of Int. or Dex-based skill, actually.
--Schemes for specific archetypes/extra/special skill-bundles. (already in).
--gains more/new skills throughout their career faster/more than other classes.

Sorcerer: a specialty available for Mages for all-spontaneous casting.

Warlock: Best at...ummm, cheating their way to magical power? No?...how 'bout "directly channeling arcane energies." Sure, we'll go with that. How?
--The PACT! root of all Warlock power...first and foremost imbuing at-will "powers" (I do not consider the magic used by warlocks to be "spells" per se...though they are capable of casting them.) from an extradimensional (infernal or demonic) patron entity.
--Favors & Boons from their patrons. Basically the Paladin and Warlock use the same mechanics...just fluffed differently. Favors are more common/"combat oriented" effects that are limited in number of times but are "renewable" [short rest stuff?]. Boons are more constant/less flashy abilities (protections/resistances, divinations, etc).
--Magic item use: ability to use any magic item a Mage can without the need for command words or specific spell knowledge or anything, they just kinda "turn the item on" with their imbued arcane energies...and, the flipside, some sort of "magic draining or stealing" mechanic that let's them refresh their allotment of "favors" by siphoning off power from items or magical places (and/or persons?).

Warlord: a specialty available to any class.

 

[VinylTap]

Whats wrong with giving assassins the option of using poisons that would effect demons, undead etc? You don't need to be a priest to use Holy Water.

Lots of good ideas in here.

 

[Jester David]

I did this already on my blog:
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With the new fighter mechanic, I'm hopeful for a song building bard.

 

[Riposte]

There is the question whether Combat Superiority or Expertise Dice should be the parallel to spells, shared between Fighter and similar classes in a way Wizard shares with Sorcerer and Warlock.

I agree with the idea that Assassin's should simply adapt to their situation. Acids/holy water, liquids which rust golems or dissolve slimes, poisons with magical effects like "silence" etc.

Also given specialties covering fighting styles, the class abilities of Ranger can focus on terrain and hunting.

 

[bbjore]

The thread said speculation, but it also said suggestions, so this seemed like a good place to put down some stuff that I've been thinking about for a while. It began with looking at Essential's power attack for martial classes. I wish that had done more with it like create feats that added special riders for it with particular weapons, or done away with the encounter power system across the martial classes, replacing it with power attack with a choice of four or so tactically interesting riders. It would've cut down on the huge list of powers, and created simple character with a tactically relevant choice to make every round. Looking at how that one element could be shared across classes for feats, but still be different based on each class's core mechanic made me think that the game needed more of that. Channel divinity, healing word, even spell lists shared across classes are all good examples of this sort of design theory that I would like to see a lot more of. Then designers can spend time on refining and polishing a few core mechanics like the arcane spell list or the martial maneuver list, and let the classes build complexity from that well developed system by taking a unique spin on it.

[sblock=To start, I'd like to see some really well developed shared mechanics between the power sources. The big four do a good job of sort of exemplifying where to start.]

The fighter, as the iconic martial class highlights what's important to the martial power source, their weapon and how they use it. Fighting styles based on a preferred weapons and combat expertise dice do this well. Fighting styles make PCs feel different based on what weapons they use, and combat expertise die reinforce the idea of how the fight is important to the warrior. With combat expertise die, the focus is what the PC is doing with their weapon, and the fact that it is an at-will resource used to improvise on the fly encourages the idea of a warrior living in the moment, performing that perfect move as the fight progresses and adapting to their opponents tactics. Martial characters are not planners, they do not hoard their resources, they are tremendous athletes who become lost in the thrill of the battle and perform great deeds with their weapons. The expertise die does this.

Next is the rogue. For me, the rogue is a skill based class. Rogues aren't concerned about weapons, they're concerned about the dirty tricks and skillful stunts they can perform. They are all about maneuvering into a position of advantage, and then striking with deadly purpose when they have it. Sneak attack models this well, but I would like to see progressed even more. For instance, each turn a rogue forgoes attacking to perform a crazy stunt or use skill and tactics to get into a better position, their pool of sneak attack dice vs. their opponent grows. For balance sake, say it take a fighter three or four turns to beat down their opponent, the rogue should spend two or three turns performing stunts, hiding... building up that sneak die, and then murder their foe with one well placed strike. Give them a shared set of skill exploits they can perform based on a guild or something to build their sneak attack dice or help gain advantage, and you have a great set up to model skillful character; a set of exploits or stunts based on skill checks, and a class ability that progresses in power with the use of those stunts. Then the skill classes are about carefully maneuvering into position for that perfect strike.

Then there's the cleric and divine classes. This is probably where I'd deviate the most from previous additions, but I think the payoff is worth it. The key thing to remember about divine classes is their power comes from their gods, not from the PC. The mechanic for divine classes should model it. To this purpose I propose encounter based resources tied to a recharge mechanic. Clerics don't ever run out of spells like a wizard, because their spells come from above, and a Paladin will fearlessly stride into the hell itself to do battle, because he knows his deity will give him the strength to go on. Their abilities do not depend on training, they depends on faith, and difference between a fighter and a paladin is that while a figher trained his whole life to be what he is, a paladin could be born the moment a pious stable boy picks up a sword and prays for the faith to defeat a demon threatening his town.

Divine classes would start with channel divinity powers and domains which would serve to differentiate a sun cleric from a war cleric, just like a thug who focuses on intimidate is different from a thief who focuses on stealth. Each class would then have a mechanic to differentiate it from other divine classes. Clerics would have spells, paladins could have smites, etc. They'd be encounter based and tied to a recharge mechanic like favor. Every time they use a resource, they lose favor with their deity. They regain favor by performing task for their god or rolling a recharge die at the end of every turn of a conflict, say a 6 on d6 for instance. This way a divine class would build favor by acting in their gods interests and lose it by calling upon their gods power. This makes the divine classes focus on doing what their god would approve of, and not using their powers frivolously. I'd even be for moving them to a completely freeform spell/ability system based on favor and level, but I think that may be too far of a departure.

Then there's the wizards. I honestly think the vancian spell system is a perfect example of a shared power source. It encourages arcane characters to spend long hours studying, jealously hoard resources, and carefully plan ahead. It embodies the idea that they are thinking creatures, individuals who spend their time sequestered away preparing for every contingency. I think all they need is to bring back schools/traditions as a way make one wizard or artificer feel different from another and create a place for feats to work across classes and they'd be set.

For primal classes, I'd like to see a daily resource allowing them to assume or use the powers of the primal spirits for the duration of an encounter. This way they could change their fighting style each fight based on which spirit they call on. Tie it to Con or Wis bonus to determine how many times a day it could be used. I do really like the previously mentioned ideas of a rage mechanic which grows when a PC is hit, and perhaps both could be implemented.

Psionic powers have been nailed pretty well in the past, disciplines to differentiate within a class, and at-will powers augmented with power points as the shared resource.

The shadow power source could be casters in easy mode. Each PC would sacrifice parts of themselves to a patron or dark power an gain a suite of at-will spell-like abilities based on which patrons or vestiges they have chosen.[/sblock]

[sblock=Once you nail down the power source. Give each class an iconic take on it or a core ability that makes it different from other PCs with the same power source.]
I think this is where roles could really play an important part. Combat auras for defenders, healing word type powers and buffs for leaders, extra damage mechanics striker characters, debuffs and action/terrain denial for controllers. I'm not saying make a class only be able to be a specific role, just make it so the class's core mechanic can help it really fulfill the role you'd expect. You can build choices into it. For instance a fighter could pick between a combat aura or doing double damage with its weapons. Spell casting classes would be able to easily decide what they want to be based on spell choices.

It doesn't have to be as explicit in the fighter example. Role could grow from choices for the power source, but if you're going to have balanced classes, those shared options for a power source should account for roles. For instance, if you're making a leader type spell or maneuver, make sure it provides a buff or benefit to the party whether it hits or not. That way damage is secondary in importance to the use of the ability. If you're making a control oriented ability, make it so it always has some effect on a monster, even if that effect is just engulfing the surrounding area in flames. The ability should be about control, and not damage. Building role into ability selection allows hybridization of roles, which is a good thing.[/sblock]

Using this system you get classes with fairly easy to grok mechanics, which reinforce a playstyle which focuses on what a class should be good at. Some examples of what I'd like to see.

[sblock=Martial Classes]To me, the fighter more than any class is the guy that holds the line. Give them an essentials style combat aura, a weapon style to make each one different, and the combat expertise die to give them at-will improvisational ability that shows what they are doing with their weapon.

I think the warlord was one of the best additions to 4E. Since they are all about leading other characters, reinforce that leader role. Give them martial healing with the ability to allow PCs to use their HD in combat, and a combat aura which allows them to give up actions to grant other PCs actions. They would then use their pool of combat expertise die to power riders for their own or other PCs attacks granted by their actions. In this way for the warlord, their sword is not their weapon, the fighter is. Give them a weapon style to show what their weapon of choice is, and they'd be set.[/sblock]

[sblock=Skill Classes]Rogues would have a series of skill exploits based on guild which they choose, and would use those exploits to slowly build up sneak attack die which they would use to hit like a truck or mercilessly disable their open when they finally do strike.

Rangers would start with a favored enemy or quarry mechanic which they increase by tracking or hunting down a particular opponent throughout the die or through a fight. Learning and adapting to their foe as they succeed in skill checks like a rogue. As a hybrid class perhaps they would use both skill tricks and combat expertise dice. Heck, let expertise die be what they build up by performing the skill tricks learned from their guild or whatever. I imagine Legolas building a ladder of arrows to take down the Oliphant or a ranger stalking his prey throughout the day, learning more and more about their opponent until they finally face them.[/sblock]

[sblock=Divine Classes]Clerics would have channel divinity and domains with a leader focus to determine their base powers, and then would spontaneously cast spells using the favor mechanic. Casting a spell causes them to lose favor, rolling a 6 on their d6 recharge die or performing tasks for the god recharges it; essentially making them encounter based spontaneous casters.

Paladins would have channel divinity and domain abilities with a defender focus to determine their powers, and would have smites which also work on the favor mechanic. These smites with riders based on domain would allow them to keep pace with fighter but would be an encounter resource with a recharge mechanic. I imagine something like being able to do extra damage vs. opponents who attack their allies or daze evil foes. Let them lay on hands using their HD and your done.[/sblock]

[sblock=Arcane Classes]Wizards have a school which grants them benefits with certain spells and the Vancian system to determine how they go about their business.

Sorcerers would subvert the vancian mechanic by casting it spontaneously, and have bloodlines which help differentiate between sorcerers. Instead of the current will mechanic, I'd like spells to be a daily resource and allow sorcerers to fuel spells with ability or hp damage. To me sorcerers aren't creatures with iron wills, they are creatures or raw power, who should slightly fear what their spells do to them.[/sblock]

[sblock=Primal Classes]Barbarians would have a daily allotment of rages (say Con bonus) with the choice of a few different aspects to assume when they do so. They would also have a few always on benefits like uncanny dodge based on what rages they have access too. This way they'd be deciding how to best utilize their daily rages to really bring the pain when necessary. I think the defaults should have mundane flavor so you don't have flaming barbarians, you have warriors who venerate their ancestors or the the strength of the bear to help them overcome their adversaries.

Druids would be able to assume a suite of spellcasting powers for the duration of an encounter by calling on a primal spirit so many times a day (say Wis bonus). The storm king would allow them to call down lightning or push foes with wind etc. They would be able to do that a few times per day, and then have always on benefits or wild shape forms based on what primal spirits they can call down with their daily resource.[/sblock]

[sblock=Shadow Classes]Warlocks would be easy mode caster, with a suite of cool at-will abilities they could bust out based on what pacts they have made or what vestiges they have assumed. They'd have a lot of cool simple choices, and complexity could build from how they use them. It'd be really nice to implement a curse mechanic where they have a powerful ability like baleful polymorph at-will, but the save starts being really easy, say a 6 or higher. Then as the fight progresses, and they further curse their opponent, the save gets more difficult. That way yes, they can turn a person into a toad at-will, but it takes them the same four turns to do it that it would take the fighter to stab them to death. I also think they should devour magic, but that's more a flavor ability.[/sblock]

It's long, but most of it was quickly adapted from my own house rules documents and notes on how I'd like to tweak D&D next. This thread seemed like a good place to put it, since this is where I hope to see them go with the design of new classes. Basically, put me down as someone who would like to see a set of really well polished shared power source mechanics and classes with a unique take on how to utilize those shared mechanics.

 

[Stormonu]

Bard: Their abilities should be based on music. Notes, chords and refrains. Notes would be small, quick spells or effects (Advantage on skill checks or other effects that are a free action). Chords would be slightly more complex-but-short effects (1 action spells). Refrains would be sustainable effects (ritual magic and/or spells requiring concentration to remain; multi-round action spells).

Paladin: Their abilities would be based on Favor (or Fervor). Like CS dice, but they could be spent for smites, removing conditions (various dice costs), laying on hands or the like. Unlike the fighter whose CS dice automatically refresh each round, Paladins have to perform acts of faith to get their CS dice back (defend an ally, smite evil, speak a truth, etc.)

Rogue: A rogues abilities are based on skills. They get stunt points they can burn for advantage on skill checks, ensuring they get a minimum of 10 on a roll or even use to perform sneak attacks. They get a set number of stunt points that can be refreshed somehow - perhaps with successful skill checks (so a rogue "on a roll" can be a dangerous thing).