A Concern About Wizard's Race Designs of Late

[DracoSuave]

I think "wait" is the spelling you are looking for.

Depends on the average size of your gaming group.

 

[Shin Okada]

Played several campaigns of WEG's (not WotC's) Star Wars RPG, I totally disagree with you.

Having various uncommon races does not harm rich background world building. And playing rare race which other races have hard time distinguishing one from the other (say, wookiee) is fun.

Each DM has their own way of background setting. But usually, I do not make neither the small details nor the solid framework of the world. Start from small area, then broaden it when PCs actually travel into another land or tried to gather information regarding something afar.

The story, especially ones of RPG sessions, revolves on main casts (PCs). Something main casts do not experience within the game do not need to be defined.

Regarding minis, you can always use some paint to "customize" your PC miniature. It does not need an experienced painter's hand to paint a miniature's top-knot into blue.

 

[N0Man]

Taste isn't universal.

It's fine if a certain race or class doesn't appeal to you, though criticizing or questioning their need to exist doesn't accomplish much. Frankly, most of the races didn't appeal to me that much either in the PHB3. However, actually after reading some of the entries, I've reconsidered at least on some.

For example, I thought the idea of a Minotaur player was completely something I'd never be interested. However, after reading through the PHB3, I though of a character concept for a Minotaur Monk that I've since become interested in trying.

It's kind of weird though. A few years ago, I would have never considered such a character. I think that 4E (and its DMGs in particular) have really helped me become a lot more open-minded about different styles of gaming and made me more flexible.

 

[Runestar]

Oh come on...

I cannot be the only person who has grown sick and bored of playing one of the core sundry races (human/elf/dwarf/halfling/gnome) and wouldn't mind trying his/her hand at a more exotic race which offers a unique and memorable gaming experience? (by virtue of possessing powers or abilities which normal mundane races cannot otherwise access).

I haven't played a core race for the past 4 years. I was already a bit sick of them from playing BG/BG2/NWN/NWN2. The only race I played in DDO was the warforged, only because he brought something different to the table. So far, I have tried my hands at an assortment of monster PC classes (using the savage progression rules) such as the ghaele, astral deva, troll, even a gold dragon. Even when using LA+0 races, they tend to comprise of more esoteric choices such as dragonborn warforged.

Honestly, I cannot envision myself playing a core race ever again.

 

[oakbriar]

I believe WOTC's intention in 4e was to avoid over complicating things with sub-races and such (by the end of 3.5 you could roll a half-dragon/half-halfling with an ogre bloodline). But they're kind of getting into that territory again anyway with some of the Winning Races articles (dusk/valenar elves for instance).

And for the record, the Wilden are supposed to be a spruced up version of the Killoren from Races of the Wild... though the only real difference I see is they all have Wolverine hair now.

Once PHB2 and Eberron came out that was pretty much put all the "classic" races out there. I wasn't very thrilled with the races PHB3 had to offer, but off the top of my head I can't really think of anything cooler. They also seem to tie the new races in with the power sources of the new classes. PHB2 fit primal/arcane/divine, and 3 was psionic and primal. So what will be next, shadow or elemental or something?

What I would like to see is more of the Winning Races that go into specific setting's variations. An Imaskar human would be pretty cool, or Xen'drik drow.

 

[AverageCitizen]

Played several campaigns of WEG's (not WotC's) Star Wars RPG, I totally disagree with you.

Having various uncommon races does not harm rich background world building. And playing rare race which other races have hard time distinguishing one from the other (say, wookiee) is fun.

Each DM has their own way of background setting. But usually, I do not make neither the small details nor the solid framework of the world. Start from small area, then broaden it when PCs actually travel into another land or tried to gather information regarding something afar.

Different play styles and different setting styles make different types of games. Sometimes I do it just like you say, and sometimes I don't. I always have a good time. Star wars works with a lot of different types of guys, and that is cool.

I don't have a problem with adding races. I just don't think these ones (the wilden and the shardminds) are very good. That worries me. That is what I want to talk about.

The story, especially ones of RPG sessions, revolves on main casts (PCs). Something main casts do not experience within the game do not need to be defined.

That is debatable, but I get your point. I still think that many players enjoy exploring a world that is set up for them to explore. Details make it cool, so long as you don't ram them down the audience's throat like a pimply star wars fanfiction writer.

Regarding minis, you can always use some paint to "customize" your PC miniature. It does not need an experienced painter's hand to paint a miniature's top-knot into blue.

You very much missed my point on the minis. I don't play with them. I can see their appeal, but I don't think they're worth the cost. My point about the minis is that Wizards has given their creative design team a mandate: Make your new stuff so that its easy to make into a mini. I think that is really, really dumb. I know its easy to paint the mini to be the way I want it, but I can't go back into my books and repaint every instance of the Deva, goliaths, shardminds and wilden to look as cool I have them in my head, and in my world. The books should be the priority, not the minis.

If I did play with minis I wouldn't use the official ones, because they are low quality. They're cheaper and they're durable, but other minis companies make much cooler ones. Its give and take.

Taste isn't universal.

You're right, good point. I know some people like shardminds. S'cool.

It's fine if a certain race or class doesn't appeal to you, though criticizing or questioning their need to exist doesn't accomplish much.

I strongly disagree, because I suspect that I am in the majority. At least I hope so. That's why I started the thread. My concern is that the game will move further away from what I want, and I suspect a lot of other people like the things I do and don't like the new races either. Its cool if some people like them, but if most people don't then the next set of races should have a different goal than these ones did.

Frankly, most of the races didn't appeal to me that much either in the PHB3. However, actually after reading some of the entries, I've reconsidered at least on some.

For example, I thought the idea of a Minotaur player was completely something I'd never be interested. However, after reading through the PHB3, I though of a character concept for a Minotaur Monk that I've since become interested in trying.

It's kind of weird though. A few years ago, I would have never considered such a character. I think that 4E (and its DMGs in particular) have really helped me become a lot more open-minded about different styles of gaming and made me more flexible.

You're very right about that. For that reason I haven't ever expressly forbid a race or class from being played in my game, cause if I can just come to understand why my player thinks its cool, I can catch the vision and let the story develop around that player. I used to hate primal but its grown on me. Still, shardminds fell short. A for effort, guys.

Oh come on...

I cannot be the only person who has grown sick and bored of playing one of the core sundry races (human/elf/dwarf/halfling/gnome) and wouldn't mind trying his/her hand at a more exotic race which offers a unique and memorable gaming experience? (by virtue of possessing powers or abilities which normal mundane races cannot otherwise access).

Honestly, I cannot envision myself playing a core race ever again.

How do your games go? Do you guys do a lot of interacting with npcs or investigating or is the focus mostly about the next opponent?

I believe WOTC's intention in 4e was to avoid over complicating things with sub-races and such (by the end of 3.5 you could roll a half-dragon/half-halfling with an ogre bloodline). But they're kind of getting into that territory again anyway with some of the Winning Races articles (dusk/valenar elves for instance).

And for the record, the Wilden are supposed to be a spruced up version of the Killoren from Races of the Wild... though the only real difference I see is they all have Wolverine hair now.

Yeah that makes sense.

Once PHB2 and Eberron came out that was pretty much put all the "classic" races out there. I wasn't very thrilled with the races PHB3 had to offer, but off the top of my head I can't really think of anything cooler.

Yeah, off the top of your head it would be hard to think of anything cooler. But these people are professionals. Even if they were talentless, they think about it all day. They should be able to do better.

THEORY: Shardminds and Wilden are the products of group-think. I'd put some money on that, now that I think about it...

They also seem to tie the new races in with the power sources of the new classes. PHB2 fit primal/arcane/divine, and 3 was psionic and primal. So what will be next, shadow or elemental or something?

Shadow would have cooler races than these, IMO. I wonder what they'd do for elemental, it seems like the genasi already have that noise covered. They'll probably come up with some stretch that leaves me dissatisfied.

What I would like to see is more of the Winning Races that go into specific setting's variations. An Imaskar human would be pretty cool, or Xen'drik drow.

Yeah that'd be cool.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I do feel with you. The most problematic thing is, that a usual adventuring group can be identified by just looking at them.

I believe, D&D could become better if there were different human races/folks to chose from instead of golems. I am gla the human race is very versatile, so you may have more humans than any other race in your party.

 

[mkill]

Ok, so the problem is:

Player wants to play a race that doesn't fit in your game world.

There are three easy solutions.

A) Tell the player to play a different race. Sucks for the player, but if you're a bit diplomatic, it should work.

B) Create a niche / unchartered territory / far away continent and place the race there. PC comes from there. Details will be added in when necessary. If nothing else works, use dimensional travel. Problem solved.

C) Make the PC a one-of-a-kind exception. Say, the Dragonborn is the result of an ascension ritual of Bahamut, the Tiefling the result of some demonic curse, the Eladrin a child stolen by fey etc.

In any case, I really see no reason to blame the game authors here. It's a problem that's easy to deal with. If the player complains about your solution, well, there are ways to deal with whining players. Folding chair.

 

[Shin Okada]

You very much missed my point on the minis. I don't play with them. I can see their appeal, but I don't think they're worth the cost. My point about the minis is that Wizards has given their creative design team a mandate: Make your new stuff so that its easy to make into a mini. I think that is really, really dumb. I know its easy to paint the mini to be the way I want it, but I can't go back into my books and repaint every instance of the Deva, goliaths, shardminds and wilden to look as cool I have them in my head, and in my world. The books should be the priority, not the minis.

I don't thinks WotC is doing "Make your new stuff so that its easy to make into a mini" type of game design, especially today. They are not even covering PHB II races or some of Eberron/Farune races enough. If they are designing supplements to sell minis, we should have been getting more.

FYI, I do like playing D&D with minis. I have been doing this for 20+ years. Today, in most cases, I use DDM for opponents & monsters, and for PCs of one-shot games. Usually, I and other guys in my play group convert and paint metal or plastic minis to make better PC minis for campaigns. And actually, some of the DDMs make good PC minis with some re-painting (and with some modifications).

 

[Piratecat]

I figure that my players will have the most invested in their characters if they're playing a race they love. As a result, I have a lot of fun reskinning "odd" races that the PCs choose. Drow in my game are now decadent, highly political elves known for their disturbing rituals and unnatural shaping of their jungle homes; warforged were created thousands of years ago by an emperor in search of cheap slaves, and have been mostly destroyed or forgotten; and wilden are called Quith and are a fey race dragooned into the Empire's armies as part of a faerie tithe to the mortal world.

It bothers me a little that the adventuring group is full of non-humans, but I'm generally okay with it. The world is easy to adjust, I got to do something creative, and the players are having fun.