A concern with Spellcraft

[The_Gneech]

So Spellcraft is being used to identify spells cast by other casters. But why should the PCs know what every single other spell in the world is just because they make a check? I much prefer the idea that Spellcraft can be used to identify commonly used or well known spells. But that lurking goblin shaman who has a lot of home brewed magic . . .

How do you handle this in your games?

Well, part of having ranks in Spellcraft represents the hours of pouring over ancient tomes, learning the combinations of moves and sounds and materials that produce specific results, etc.

Do you really create a custom spell list for that goblin shaman? If he really is casting unique spells, then sure, even a successful Spellcraft check will only tell you "It's some kind of conjuration -- make your saving throw!" But if he's really casting summon monster that just happens to be named Maglubiyet's sendings, well, chances are that Spellcraft would tell you, "He's casting a variation on summon monster."

-The Gneech

 

[Munin]

I'm a little more harsh than CM. If it ain't on your spell-list, you can't use spellcraft to determine what it is.

I also use a neat little houserule that I gleaned off of Monte's boards if you'd like me to post it here for you.

 

[antman120]

I'm a little more harsh than CM. If it ain't on your spell-list, you can't use spellcraft to determine what it is.

I also use a neat little houserule that I gleaned off of Monte's boards if you'd like me to post it here for you.

Thats what I do. Of course any one with half a brain can figure out what a fireball bieng shot at them will do. Please do post the house rule.

 

[Munin]

Here ya go...

Using Spellcraft to Identify Items
By using the Spellcraft skill with Identify spells (described below), a spellcaster can identify magical properties in magic items, as described below.

Success on this check describes one function completely and allows another casting of the spell to identify further abilities. Succeeding by more than 5 results in the option for the caster to make an immediate attempt to identify the next item effect (without a recast) next round. Failure results in being stumped on this item again until you gain more ranks in Spellcraft.

Determining DC:
Base Spellcraft DC 20.
+1 to DC per caster level necessary to create the item.
Note the limits of Identify and Improved Identify, listed below.

Modifiers to skill check:
-5 if effect is from a school of magic forbidden to caster due to specialization
+2 if effect is from a school of magic caster specializes in
+2 if caster has necessary feat to create item (ex: Forge Ring)
+2 if caster level is equal to or greater than the level required to add this property
+2 if caster knows spells required to create this property
+2 if caster has created this item in the past
+1 for every hour spent casting the spell in an alchemical lab (non-portable, worth at least 500gp). This maximum for this modifier is +2/+4/+6 for Identify/ Improved Identify/Greater Identify, respectively.

Limits of Spells:
Identify is only effective against caster level 6 items and below. A check against DC 26 will tell the caster that the magic is too powerful for Identify to understand. (Note that this does not count as a failure)
Improved Identify is only effective against caster level 13 items and below. A check against DC 33 will tell the caster that the magic is too powerful for Improved Identify to understand.
Greater Identify can potentially identify any non-artifact item.

Example : Identifying a +4 holy longsword
A spellcaster who has memorized Identify attempts to figure out what sword the party has found. The holy special attribute requires a caster level of sixth level. A successful check against DC 26 will reveal this quality.
However, the +4 aspect of this sword requires a twelfth level caster. This aspect could not be deciphered with Identify, although a successful check against DC 26 will tell the caster to prepare a more powerful Identify in the future.

Spells

Detect Magic
As defined in the Player's Handbook:
In the third round of a Detect Magic casting, the strength of the various auras is made known to the caster. Under normal rules, a caster may make a Spellcraft check to determine the school of magic for each aura (DC 15 + spell level [or ½ caster level for non-spell effect]).

The DC of first aura identified is the most powerful aura, and uses that DC for the check. Each additional aura on the same item has its DC increased by 3.
The school of magic will help make it clear what the item's purpose is, but will not give any concrete information.

Example: a +4 holy longsword requires caster level 12 aura (for +4) and one caster level 7 aura (for holy), the +4 aura would be detectable with a DC of 21, the holy aspect with DC 24.

Identify
Divination
Level: Brd 1, Magic 2, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: One item
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell allows the caster to make a Spellcraft roll to identify unknown properties of a magic item as described under "Using Spellcraft to Identify Items".
The focus of this spell is an ornate magnifying glass, worth at least 100gp, which is not consumed in the casting of the spell.

Improved Identify
Level: Brd 3, Magic 4, Wiz/Sor 3
As Identify, but casting time is 10 minutes and the focus is a tiny lens of a semi-precious gem set in a metal loop which must be worth at least 750 gold.

Greater Identify
Level: Brd 4, Magic 6, Wiz/Sor 5
As Identify, but casting time is 30 minutes and the focus must be a lens of a precious gem set in a metal loop which must be worth 1500 gold. This focus may also be used as a focus for Analyze Dweomer.

 

[the Jester]

I increase the DC for rare or unique spells. If a particular npc created a unique spell, a successful Spellcraft check would tell you the spell's school, level, and (depending on the Spellcraft roll) maybe some details about it.

 

[Turhan]

For my home brew:
Divine magic is different than arcane or druidic. Any spell caster can recognize the type of magic even if it is foreign to him/her.

Spellcraft checks only work within your own field of magic, unless you have seen a particular spell worked by one of the other classes and have some practical experience with the magic (like being a target).

DC's are somewhat more variable than by-the-book, in my games.

The caster's in my group are okay with these rules and rather like them.

 

[Henry]

Even if said Goblin Witch Doctor is tossing off Glurg's Spiffy Chieftain Killer instead of just another magic missile, Why wouldn't a mage know that when Glurg intones the arcane words of power, that his choice of intonations and gestures, as well as the chartreuse-to-jade mists forming little balls of light are evidence of an evocation spell that is similar to magic missile? Or more to the point, it's unlike any spell he's seen before, and has no counter prepared? Or that based on the way this shaman handles magic, that it will have a duration of roughly X? Even if the DM decides that magic is more chaotic than codified, the ways to call magic mean that if he's well studied, he can identify the basics of magic being used?

Now, what I have a harder time seeing is identifying a Silent, Still Spell with no material components, whom the caster has cast defensively. It would be like "naming that tune in 1 note" to recall an old phrase.

 

[shaylon]

Now, what I have a harder time seeing is identifying a Silent, Still Spell with no material components, whom the caster has cast defensively. It would be like "naming that tune in 1 note" to recall an old phrase.

Never really thought of it that way, but you are right. You shouldn't be able to tell in a situation like this.

I have to agree with Ironwolf though. You, as a wizard, may not be able to cast it but certainly at some point in your wizarding training you would have heard of or seen another cast the spell.

If you make up your own spells that you know a wizard would not have seen then I would suggest adding to the DC.

-Shay

 

[Crothian]

I have to agree with Ironwolf though. You, as a wizard, may not be able to cast it but certainly at some point in your wizarding training you would have heard of or seen another cast the spell.

But it works the same for the fighter who never had any magical traning and has ranks in it. Unless its assumed that everyone with a rank in the skill has seen every spell.

 

[Janx]

Even if said Goblin Witch Doctor is tossing off Glurg's Spiffy Chieftain Killer instead of just another magic missile, Why wouldn't a mage know that when Glurg intones the arcane words of power, that his choice of intonations and gestures, as well as the chartreuse-to-jade mists forming little balls of light are evidence of an evocation spell that is similar to magic missile? Or more to the point, it's unlike any spell he's seen before, and has no counter prepared? Or that based on the way this shaman handles magic, that it will have a duration of roughly X? Even if the DM decides that magic is more chaotic than codified, the ways to call magic mean that if he's well studied, he can identify the basics of magic being used?

Now, what I have a harder time seeing is identifying a Silent, Still Spell with no material components, whom the caster has cast defensively. It would be like "naming that tune in 1 note" to recall an old phrase.

Ah the voice of logic.

If you alter your in-game explanation of what spellcraft represents, then rules work fine. Simply put, you're not identifying the spell literally. You're identifying that the wizard is focusing a lot of fire energy to be centered on your position with a 20' radius. It's simply a lot faster for the DM to get the point across to name the spell as Fireball. The DM doesn't have to actually name the spell (and a lot of ambiance might be generated if he described it instead), but lazy DM's like me tend to summarize.

Janx