A CR 2 Triton can summon a CR 3 Water Elemental?
- Thread starter Noumenon
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Noumenon
First Post
1/day 100% is just so different from 1/day 30%, though. You don't even expect to see the vrock when you see a succubus. You'll see the elemental every time.
Look at it this way -- a 30% chance to a CR 9 is only like adding a CR 3, right? Or, being that "succubi are not warriors," it's more like turning a CR 7 into a CR 9 instead. Adding a water elemental to a triton more than doubles the challenge rating -- in theory. Medium Water Elementals shouldn't be all that bad because their vortex only works on the Small characters, but I've never run one.
Look at it this way -- a 30% chance to a CR 9 is only like adding a CR 3, right? Or, being that "succubi are not warriors," it's more like turning a CR 7 into a CR 9 instead. Adding a water elemental to a triton more than doubles the challenge rating -- in theory. Medium Water Elementals shouldn't be all that bad because their vortex only works on the Small characters, but I've never run one.
frankthedm
First Post
The spell[-like] has a long casting time, short range and a short duration on an otherwise low danger foe. If the DM sets the encounter up where the summoned monster is the main foe, like if the triton summons the beast from an unassailable position before he was detected by the party, giving XP as if the summoned monster was the actual encounter is quite reasonable.
Also, the triton got a power up from 3.0. When wotc was powering up the druids spell list, they gave a strong boost to the Summon Nature Ally dropping several monsters down a whole spell level. in 3.0, the only elementals SNA4 gave access to were [1d3] small water elementals. Much like how the mind flayer got a power boost when Plane shift became an attack spell in 3.5, the triton had his potential jump because one f his SLA’s got boosted for a PC class.
Now a thornier issue is if the Triton decides to summon the all terrain Giant crocodile instead! A 59 HP CR4 that has a +11 (2d8+12) damage improved grab attack. God help the party if they are instead immersed in the water, that same broken druid spell can also summon a huge shark.
EDIT:
They also have a special disability that is often overlooked.Noumenon said:
Water Mastery (Ex)
A water elemental gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both it and its opponent are touching water. If the opponent or the elemental is touching the ground, the elemental takes a -4 penalty on attack and damage rolls. (These modifiers are not included in the statistics block.)
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Now that's just weird. What's the point of the stat block when you're always either gonna be adding a +1 or -4 to the atk and damage. You're never going to be using the stat block as is, unless everybody is flying or something....
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Good analysis overall, but did you really need to call it a broken spell? The shark and croc are both CR 4 with few to no special abilities, which is in line with what SNA IV should do. They also each only ever get one attack per round, croc's best doing 2d8 +12, shark's doing 2d6 +7. A 7th level party could handle either of those, hardest part might be the grapple mods, which a fighter of that level still has a decent shot of winning.
You think giving a level 4 spell to a CR 2 creature is broken? Maybe. But don't call the spell broken just cause the triton has it. I think I'll give Haste as a 1/day SLA to a CR 1 creature. Did I just make Haste broken?
Hella_Tellah
Explorer
Frankthedm makes good points as always. I'd also direct you to the following:
They're also Neutral Good, so if the players encounter tritons, they ought to be able to parley with them fairly easily. If players find a company (2-5) or squad (6-11) of them out patrolling, they won't be near their homes and will avoid combat, and since they are 90% likely to be mounted, they'll probably get away. If the PCs find them at home, well, they're Neutral Good, so they won't just attack on sight. If the PCs anger the relatively peaceful band (20-80) of tritons, I'd say they've got it coming to them.
It looks to me like this is a creature that's not meant to be fought, and its summoning ability is there to stimey players while they escape.
SRD said:
They're also Neutral Good, so if the players encounter tritons, they ought to be able to parley with them fairly easily. If players find a company (2-5) or squad (6-11) of them out patrolling, they won't be near their homes and will avoid combat, and since they are 90% likely to be mounted, they'll probably get away. If the PCs find them at home, well, they're Neutral Good, so they won't just attack on sight. If the PCs anger the relatively peaceful band (20-80) of tritons, I'd say they've got it coming to them.
It looks to me like this is a creature that's not meant to be fought, and its summoning ability is there to stimey players while they escape.
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frankthedm
First Post
Yes. SNA4 is a broken spell IMO. The power level of the critter comes close to replacing the front line Combatants and makes the majority of medium foes almost useless thanks to improved grab.
Improved grab on a Huge creature is all that matters
That 4th level spell is broken, when it is treated as a 4th level spell.
My problem is these critters can themselves "Handle" a lot of things that 7th level party should be challenged by.
To me that sounds like a strawman argument.
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