A D&D 3.5 MMORPG

FickleGM said:
I'm going to pick a bit, but I don't get paid to play. ;)



I would hope that after reading from the various threads on this forum that you would realize that not everyone wants the same thing out of a tabletop game. What makes you think that the responses would be any different for a computer based game? Just because we are D&D fans doesn't mean that we want the same thing.
I know we all want certain things from a game, but we all play dungeons and dragons. At its core its a group game (remember the old rules that had 15 to 20 players). It was developed from a war strategy game. Its in the history.

From hack and slash, to cinematics, to thespian diceless games they all got one thing in common, group interaction. Very rarely if ever have I heard someone say (hey i just want to play in a dungeons and dragons campaign with one player in it). Even those who do do it because they don't have a choice.
 

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DonTadow said:
I know we all want certain things from a game, but we all play dungeons and dragons. At its core its a group game (remember the old rules that had 15 to 20 players). It was developed from a war strategy game. Its in the history.

From hack and slash, to cinematics, to thespian diceless games they all got one thing in common, group interaction. Very rarely if ever have I heard someone say (hey i just want to play in a dungeons and dragons campaign with one player in it). Even those who do do it because they don't have a choice.

I agree, that at their roots, RPGs are group oriented games. I just wanted to point out in an earlier post that they can and are played as solo games (actually, duo games with a GM and a Player). I also wanted to point out in my more recent post that since posters here vary so much on what they want from tabletop D&D, it makes sense that the computer arena would also bring out differences. I play tabletop for one thing and computer for different reasons.

I am also not saying that focusing DDO on the group dynamic is a bad thing. I am only saying that it is not what I am looking for in a computer game, therefore I will probably not be in the market for this game.
 

One of the thing many of you are underestimating is just how easy grouping is in this game. You are either in the city of stormreach or you are adventuring. This means all people looking for groups are already in the same area. Chances are they are in the same pub so finding a group isn't the half an hour task that most games make it. Since every quest is instanced and the instance entrances are in town getting to the quest is 2 minutes at most, not the multiple hours running through scenery that you've already seen. Also all the quests tell you before you start their length (short, medium, long, very long) so you know what you are letting yourself in for before you start. It is entirely possible to log on, find a group and complete a quest in half an hour.

There are also danger zones where you individually join and there are constant quests on going much like standard MMORPGs so if you just want to kill a few things you can (they have slightly more story than that but you get the idea).

Normally I dislike grouping in MMORPGs but DDO makes it actually viable.

The main problem with soloing is they then need to remove traps as you may not be a rogue. They need to drop the number of monsters as you may not be able to cast healing magic. They need to drop the power of the monsters as you may not be a combat master. And so pretty soon they have removed everything unique and interesting about the game and you just end up with another MMORPG like all the others.

Oh and DDO has built in voice chat since I remember some people asking about that a few posts back.
 

BeauNiddle said:
One of the thing many of you are underestimating is just how easy grouping is in this game. You are either in the city of stormreach or you are adventuring. This means all people looking for groups are already in the same area. Chances are they are in the same pub so finding a group isn't the half an hour task that most games make it. Since every quest is instanced and the instance entrances are in town getting to the quest is 2 minutes at most, not the multiple hours running through scenery that you've already seen. Also all the quests tell you before you start their length (short, medium, long, very long) so you know what you are letting yourself in for before you start. It is entirely possible to log on, find a group and complete a quest in half an hour.

There are also danger zones where you individually join and there are constant quests on going much like standard MMORPGs so if you just want to kill a few things you can (they have slightly more story than that but you get the idea).

Normally I dislike grouping in MMORPGs but DDO makes it actually viable.

The main problem with soloing is they then need to remove traps as you may not be a rogue. They need to drop the number of monsters as you may not be able to cast healing magic. They need to drop the power of the monsters as you may not be a combat master. And so pretty soon they have removed everything unique and interesting about the game and you just end up with another MMORPG like all the others.

Oh and DDO has built in voice chat since I remember some people asking about that a few posts back.

The thing i was saying about the exploration and adventuring aspect of MMO's is I for 1 like checking out the different areas just as I do in the MMO's out right now but my point being that it should be optional to travel by whatever means you see fit not just poof pam ping and walla im there, that will get tiresome after awhile just like traveling back and for will become tiresome as well. Like in WOW,EQ2,FFXII(these i have played) it was to me interesting seeing what the differnt lands had to offer until i got up in level and those areas became obsolete and the mobs and quest in the areas became past memories. Thats when i feel like it takes too dam long to get where I need to be cause now im lv 40 or 60...etc and I have to travel back and forth between city and destination, thats when i prefer instancing to higher lv areas so i can explore further out in less time, and at times that griff or that choco didnt cut it cause it still didnt seem fast enough once you had to cross several different zones just to get where you need to be. I ask you this, in your PnP campaigns do you instance everywhere or does your group travel from town to town, area to area, dungeon to dungeon...etc?
 

spiritkeeper said:
I ask you this, in your PnP campaigns do you instance everywhere or does your group travel from town to town, area to area, dungeon to dungeon...etc?

In my home campaign they travel. However it doesn't involve them sitting there slowly making progress watching the same boring scenery stream by. Maybe the exploration thing does it for some people, but honestly in D&D campaigns, travel is almost always handwaved with the exception of random encounters.

"You need to travel to the other side of the kingdom. You arrange for horses, travel the King's Road, and <roll, roll, roll> have an uneventful journey as you pass a number of villages and farms, stopping at wayside Inns".

Well that takes a whole five minutes of description which the equivalent of in WoW would have been an hour or so<very rough estimate>. I didn't mind scenery in CoH very much because:
A) It was all in one City, so distances weren't all that great.
B) You had travel powers which actually meant you could move with good velocity. As of 14th level you could get super speed and move at around 50 MPH. Plodding along is what annoys me, zipping along isn't so bad.

buzzard
 

spiritkeeper said:
The thing i was saying about the exploration and adventuring aspect of MMO's is I for 1 like checking out the different areas just as I do in the MMO's out right now but my point being that it should be optional to travel by whatever means you see fit not just poof pam ping and walla im there, that will get tiresome after awhile just like traveling back and for will become tiresome as well. Like in WOW,EQ2,FFXII(these i have played) it was to me interesting seeing what the differnt lands had to offer until i got up in level and those areas became obsolete and the mobs and quest in the areas became past memories. Thats when i feel like it takes too dam long to get where I need to be cause now im lv 40 or 60...etc and I have to travel back and forth between city and destination, thats when i prefer instancing to higher lv areas so i can explore further out in less time, and at times that griff or that choco didnt cut it cause it still didnt seem fast enough once you had to cross several different zones just to get where you need to be. I ask you this, in your PnP campaigns do you instance everywhere or does your group travel from town to town, area to area, dungeon to dungeon...etc?
In my campaign it depends. Mundane traveling is not the fun for the party. We tracked all across a continent my last session and though the time took a month or so in game time, out of game we went about in an hour or two.
I'll role play through a couple of hours on the journey so the pcs can get a feal of the land and wildlife, or if its a difficult journey that involves lots of saves.

I am mixed on this issue. One of the things I loved about final fantasy xi was the traveling between the three big cities. In the beginning it was awesome. But as time went on it became tedious and at times I didnt even play because the journey was going to take so long. I say play out the first trip in an mmorpg, and give the option for everything else.
 

BeauNiddle said:
One of the thing many of you are underestimating is just how easy grouping is in this game. You are either in the city of stormreach or you are adventuring. This means all people looking for groups are already in the same area. Chances are they are in the same pub so finding a group isn't the half an hour task that most games make it. Since every quest is instanced and the instance entrances are in town getting to the quest is 2 minutes at most, not the multiple hours running through scenery that you've already seen. Also all the quests tell you before you start their length (short, medium, long, very long) so you know what you are letting yourself in for before you start. It is entirely possible to log on, find a group and complete a quest in half an hour.

There are also danger zones where you individually join and there are constant quests on going much like standard MMORPGs so if you just want to kill a few things you can (they have slightly more story than that but you get the idea).

Normally I dislike grouping in MMORPGs but DDO makes it actually viable.

The main problem with soloing is they then need to remove traps as you may not be a rogue. They need to drop the number of monsters as you may not be able to cast healing magic. They need to drop the power of the monsters as you may not be a combat master. And so pretty soon they have removed everything unique and interesting about the game and you just end up with another MMORPG like all the others.

Oh and DDO has built in voice chat since I remember some people asking about that a few posts back.

I would like to add a little to BeauNiddle comments, as I have been playing in alpha/beta for almost 3 months now. I will try to stick general comments and/or facts that have already been released, to not violate my NDA.

1. the quests are scripted, though there are many similiarites (i.e. too many dungeons and sewers), most have interesting twists to them, which makes them difficult to add/remove monsters/traps/triggers/etc. for different play styles.

2. there are many quests that you can solo if you are one-two levels higher and still be a challenge. Though you will miss some or most of the optional content that only certains classes can access (int trigger for Wiz, open lock for rogue, charisma check for sorcerer, etc.), and of course the all important high check search just to find secret doors...

3. In general the medium-to-very long quests are balanced for full parties of 6 (rogue, caster, healer, tanks). Most of the short-medium quests can be completed with smaller parties of 2-4.

4. There are quests where rogues are essential and quests where the tanks dominate, etc.

5. It's very easy to find a group at levels 1-6, beyond that I don't know, between wipes for testing new engine/DB/world versions and I found I like testing out new builds quite often. Generally my experience I have found that I can log in and be in a group in less than 5 minutes. Sometimes I don't even have to turn on LFG and someone is already asking me to join a party. The fastest was like 1 min, I booted up, choose a character, hit enter and my PC had not even loaded on the world on screen and I got the "ding" of a invite already.
Also if there is something "I want to do" I create a group notice up that want to form a group to do quest so and so. People join up if they are interested and I send "/tell"s to individuals that are LFG if they are interested, sometimes its no, but generally its yes.

6. I found that the "majority" of betatesters are much older than your typical MMO game, probably in mid 30s to 40s. The most common "afk" I get, is "my kid (son/daughter) needs so and so, be back in 5 min..." From voice chat I found a surprising number of female players.

7. Idiot players/griefers/pain the butt individual, are very rare. People are ready to say in group which players not to invite. I keep a sticky on my PC with the names of players (three thus far) never to invite into a group. For three months this seems pretty good, compared to the issues my friends had in WoW, AO, EQ I and II, and COH.

8. Content, hmm guess I am "very" casual player. I see players (powergamers?) complaining all the time about the limited number of quests open in beta. Despite the limited number of quests I still have not done them all. At most I play 3-4 hours 3 nights during the weekdays and maybe 4-6 on Sundays and less on Saturday.

9. While the combat is closer to FPS style, than other MMO games; it does have a "heavy" dose of D&D flavor to it. Flanking bonus is in, rogues crit, tumbling, shield is actually much more useful in DDO than PnP D&D. There is sword & shield, two weapon, and 2-handed weapon styles. A lot of PnP D&D's combat tactics have ported over to DDO. Use sleep to bring down the mob and hack the sleepers; go for the casters quickly else suffer their spells while their tanks hold you off. You shoot arrows, they shoot arrows back or throw javelins at you. There are tunnel fights, fighting on ledges, on bridges, on hill slopes, on ships, and more. Good party tactics determine if you characters die, clerics and mages run of spell points early, or party gets through to the final boss in good shape. I have seen a full party 6 of lvls 3-4 decimated in a certain quest, where a well led party with good teamwork of lvl 2 easy made it through with no KIAs.
Voice chat has really improved the experience, especially when a party is explorering a new quest and party rogue yells out trap!. The party stops immediately and everyone wonders where the trap is and what will it do to you...

10. the environment can kill you if you are not careful, a good swim skill is necessary for many quests...

So will I buy the game? Probably, every new alpha/beta build of the DDO game has added new features and enriched the game. I dont' believe it's in Turbine's best interest to make a game for a wider audience (i.e. too much solo) content, it will divide their resource too much and mitigate their advantage in crafting very interesting, often novel, challengeing quests. That is where IMO they should maintain their focus. They can't make a game appeal to everyone. My friends have all dropped WoW, not so much for the mechanics of the game, but primarily for the poor social environment of the gamers there.
I came looking to DDO looking for the "D&D" experience in a online format. Thus far I feel they have delivered it.

If you have tried DDO and don't like, well look around besides WoW, EQ, GW, UO and others, there are more games to be released next year:
Vanguard (don't know anything really about this one, but I see people posting that it will compete with DDO and LOTR next year),
Conan (this one seems to be filled with PvP type players, not my type of people, but the scenary looks fantastic, the characters less so. I like Robert Howard's Conan series, but the PvP focus is a real turn off for me.), and
Lord of the Rings (I am sorted turned off by this one, its PvE focused, but from reading the open boards I have not grasped what type of game they are going for. I feel that a game based on Tolkien's middle-earth really needs a lot of flavor and history to it. What little has been released just does not convey that "feel" and thus has not inspired me to hang out too often on their boards.).
 

Small servers

I'm thinking like this, even in MMOG's where there are thousands of ppl and the chances of getting a grp in the initial release are substancially high and everyones all excited and spends mad hours signed on,but once several months pass by and you see new chars and everyone looking for different party members and the right grp build. Whats one to do when there are'nt that many ppl online and/or there are like mostly the same chars playing at one time. I see even on High capacity servers that to be an issue cause you cant find a grp even if you /search all, /lfg, like said earlier even in alpha/beta not everyone playing will want to grp or be a part of your experience. I just feel this will cause alot of problems since DDO will have small community servers and only a few ppl on at a time,how will this affect the social players vs the power gamers? Those that are on wont be doing the same things. I feel this will become more of a problem for DDO than it does for any other MMOG, and not really calling DDO a MMO cause it's not is your taking away the Massive it becomes ORPG. I think in my opinion that ppl will end up in the long run organizing there guilds and friends offline and only playing with that grp as they would in a PnP game. Correct me if im wrong but what are your views on this issue (Some insight would greatly be appreciated) but this worries me about DDO's future.
 
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Going back to the setting issue for a moment, here are my thoughts:

FR actually has too much material to make it a good MMORPG. There will inevitably be inconsistencies with written material which will make people complain. Stay away from FR.

Eberron, from what I have seen and heard on these boards and elsewhere, has polarized people. Most people love it or hate it. Why exclude the potential players who hate Eberron?

Greyhawk I wouldn't dare touch for an MMORPG. They people who love Greyhawk have done much work to make it their own. Dropping in someone else's idea about the world would be considered blasphemy.

If I were the one making the call, I would create a whole new setting for a D&D MMORPG - and then, just like with WoW, release campaign setting books to bring the game to your tabletop as well, thereby impacting the revenue stream of the parent game. If they released FR, do you think it would increase sales of the FR books? Probably not. Perhaps they might be hoping to do that with Eberron, but I think they missed the window. If that was the intent, they would have been better off releasing Eberron at about the same time as the MMORPG.
 

spiritkeeper said:
I think in my opinion that ppl will end up in the long run organizing there guilds and friends and only playing with that grp as they would in a PnP game. Correct me if im wrong but what are your views on this issue (Some insight would greatly be appreciated) but this worries me about DDO's future.

Well you see that already, on a few occassions someone will drop out of a group to go play with a friend, brother or guild mate, but its pretty rare. The great majority are not in guilds. Despite the wipes and playing other alts, after 3 months you recognize names or name patterns of preferred players. Also since I tend to delete and try out new characters pretty often, I quite often meet new people just entering the game. The majority are good people (some better than others), there are always going to be a few bad apples and people with different play styles. Also I have noticed most recently that DDO has introduced a lot of totally new people to the online game experience.... I know that some people get frustrated guiding total newbies on how to use their keyboards to move/fight/cast spells etc. But I try to help, it brings new players for you to play with and increases their enjoyment if they don't stress out over the little stuff that you take for granted.

The most I have seen in our one beta world is about 600+ on one time and man was the city packed. Every tavern was full, even the various town squares and market areas were packed. Finding groups on those days is not a problem, on the other hand getting too many invites can be a hassle at times, even if you are not LFG.

Turbine has said that they would limit server population size to ~1,000, but has not said how many characters you get per server or how many total servers you will have access per account. I think that is where there may be a problem with a community of aging and therefore high-level PCs all on one server. On the other hand you don't have to group with people at the exact same level. Many groups (past the newbie area) have 1-2 levels of dffierence between party members, and I have seen as high as 4 levels of difference in character levels. Smaller server also allows you to get to know and recognize people by name and by their "naming" preference. Allowing you to remember that toon's player as someone you want or dont' want to adventure with.

Which is part of Turbine's intent to build a community feel to the game. For me I do see it, only one of my PnP D&D friend is in beta, but we play at different times, so I rarely see him. I have met lots of people in beta DDO and from the invites I seem to instantly get (without being LFG) people recognize my toon's name (friend's list). It's likewise with me, I say hello and greet people that I recognize as good fellow players. RL chit chat is not a big thing as the great majority are working adults with children so getting down to the business of playtesting (and questing) is a important thing for all of us.
 

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