A Dance with Dragons discussion (SPOILERS!)

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Agreed on all fronts. And I think we're now finally getting a picture of the long game that Varys has been running. His goal has clearly been to get the Targaryans back in power ever since they were deposed. We've pretty much known this since book I I guess. But we now see that he had a number of different contingency plans. First he had Aegon in reserve, then Viserys, and the deal to marry Quentyn to Daneyres.

But my question as a reader is this: Should I WANT the Targaryans back in power? Classical literary theory says the end of the drama should resolve the threads and result in the restoration of order. There are many ways to get there, and I think many of us have assumed for a long time that it would end with Dany on the throne. But even if I could support that outcome, depending on how it was handled, should I be rooted for the Targaryans IN GENERAL to regain power? Particularly if they're doing so through the offices of Varys? It all goes back to something Jorah said in the first volume I guess, the nobles play their game of thrones, and the small folks pay the price. Who ultimately sits the Iron Throne may not matter nearly as much as we've been led to believe.

Well, I got the impression that with the King's death in the first book, everything went to . Lots of people have died since then. If he had lived, the only bad thing that would have happened would have been that the crown makes more debt, it seems.

Admittedly, Daenerys would still be around and would eventually cross the sea for conquest. It could very well be that even that would have been only a reprieve then - but it would have been a reprieve, and the common folk would have been spared a few years of suffering.

I guess the problem is - the Game of Thrones will be played, no matter what.

 

[Remus Lupin]

Actually, thinking back on AFFC, I realize I misremembered. The original deal was to marry Arianne to Viserys, until Khal Drogo gave him his crown, thus the fall back position of marrying Quentyn to Danyeres, which is at least part of why Dany doesn't really have a lot of use for Quentyn when he finally shows up.

 

[Cor Azer]

Agreed on all fronts. And I think we're now finally getting a picture of the long game that Varys has been running. His goal has clearly been to get the Targaryans back in power ever since they were deposed. We've pretty much known this since book I I guess. But we now see that he had a number of different contingency plans. First he had Aegon in reserve, then Viserys, and the deal to marry Quentyn to Daneyres.

But my question as a reader is this: Should I WANT the Targaryans back in power? Classical literary theory says the end of the drama should resolve the threads and result in the restoration of order. There are many ways to get there, and I think many of us have assumed for a long time that it would end with Dany on the throne. But even if I could support that outcome, depending on how it was handled, should I be rooted for the Targaryans IN GENERAL to regain power? Particularly if they're doing so through the offices of Varys? It all goes back to something Jorah said in the first volume I guess, the nobles play their game of thrones, and the small folks pay the price. Who ultimately sits the Iron Throne may not matter nearly as much as we've been led to believe.

I pretty much agree, except that I never expected Dany to sit the Iron Throne, at least not for long. Introducing Aegon sort of solves that since he has a better claim than Dany. Of course, the "return" of Aegon and Connington never really surprised me - all talk of them had a strong feeling of "we think they died by not sure" - but the how they returned was unexpected.

Still, I'm actually of the thought that at the end of the series the Seven Kingdoms will be restored to seven actual kingdoms. Although again, not sure on the how.

 

[Remus Lupin]

Yeah, I think Robb had it right from the beginning: KING IN THE NORTH! KING IN THE NORTH!

 

[DemonKing]

Well why does it have to be Dany or Aegon or sits the Iron Throne when the dust clears?

Barristan mentions in ADwD that the Mad King (Aerys) was infatuated with Tywin's wife (and cousin) and just before Tyrion kills him in ASoS Tywin says "you are not my son" - plus he has the white-blonde hair and a purple eye.

Also there are theories that John was actually the bastard son of Raeghar and Eddard Stark's sister (hence why he looks like a Stark).

There seem to be Targs everywhere if you just look close enough!

 

[Cor Azer]

Well why does it have to be Dany or Aegon or sits the Iron Throne when the dust clears?

Barristan mentions in ADwD that the Mad King (Aerys) was infatuated with Tywin's wife (and cousin) and just before Tyrion kills him in ASoS Tywin says "you are not my son" - plus he has the white-blonde hair and a purple eye.

Also there are theories that John was actually the bastard son of Raeghar and Eddard Stark's sister (hence why he looks like a Stark).

There seem to be Targs everywhere if you just look close enough!

Have to be? Well, it doesn't have to be. But currently, neither of those other suspected Targaryens have any interest on the throne. Tyrion just wants Casterly Rock, and after the smear campaign against him, I don't think even he would think he'd be a popular king. Jon believes in honor and duty, so unless something cropped up that makes it his duty to rule, I don't see it happening - particularly when better claimants exist (note, even if R+L=J, he's still a bastard, so no claim)

 

[Taelorn76]

A little late to the party but I just finished the book.

A few things that have been pointed out already really stunned me,

Spoiler

Jon being stabbed

, but when I think about what GRRM has done in the past this should not have come as much of a shock.

I will tag the following just in case
[sblock]
In one of Selmy's last POVs, he mentioned the tourney where he lost to Rhaeger, and how if he would have won there was a woman he would have given the flower to. He then went on to say that she ended up with a Stark. Could this be another clue as to who Jon's mother may have been?[/sblock]

All in all pretty good book, I do wish there was a little less supernatural stuff going on though.

 

[Fast Learner]

Re: Jon Snow's parentage, indeed. In fact, the clues are so incredibly strong that it's downright unlikely that his parents aren't

Spoiler

Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark

. See Chris Holden's essay at Tower of the Hand for a very compelling list of clues and reasoning.

Great site, btw, it allows you to select the latest book you've read and only provides spoilers through that book.

 

[Cor Azer]

A little late to the party but I just finished the book.

A few things that have been pointed out already really stunned me,

Spoiler

Jon being stabbed

, but when I think about what GRRM has done in the past this should not have come as much of a shock.

I will tag the following just in case
[sblock]
In one of Selmy's last POVs, he mentioned the tourney where he lost to Rhaeger, and how if he would have won there was a woman he would have given the flower to. He then went on to say that she ended up with a Stark. Could this be another clue as to who Jon's mother may have been?[/sblock]

I can't recall the exact passage, but I think he was referring to Ashara Dayne, who was enamoured with Ned.

All in all pretty good book, I do wish there was a little less supernatural stuff going on though.

Don't expect that; one of the themes of the books is the return of magic.

 

[Taelorn76]

Don't expect that; one of the themes of the books is the return of magic.

Not so much against the return of magic; just not too keen on the who undead thing. I really like all the political strategy.