comrade raoul
Explorer
D&D? Not really the game for simulationists. Evaluate weapon statistics by (i) game balance; (ii) intuitive feel, not (iii) history or physics.Griffith Dragonlake said:
A different approach to katanas
- Thread starter Exen Trik
- Start date
Griffith Dragonlake
First Post
The old 'every weapon should be no better or worse than any other weapon' argument? No thanks. For myself, it really kills my suspension of disbelief when D&D calls a 2-handed scimitar a "falchion." Why not call it a 2-handed curved sword? Or go the fantasy route all the way and invent a name for the sword, like 'desert devil sword' or some such.comrade raoul said:
As for physics, if we can evaluate weapons in the d20 system according to real world physics, why not? This is a House Rules forum after all and a perfect place to discuss such things. I fail to see why history or physics when applied to weapons diminish the D&D experience. After all, d20 is a game system used to describe actions and consequences in a virtual reality.
Arkhandus
First Post
Meh, for those of us who aren't extremely familiar with ancient weapons, it doesn't matter that D&D's "falchion" and "longsword" and "short sword" don't really go by the names they would've historically, it's just a game. The falchion could be called a great scimitar or whatever, the long sword a war sword, and the short sword a gladius.
Anyway..... I have no problem with the first poster's version of Katana stats. Katanas were made from poor steel and needed the folding techniques to work out impurities, but they were strong for cutting, not as much for impacts or thrusting though. European swords were tougher perhaps, and better for thrusting IIRC, but the katana had its advantages when cutting lightly-armored foes (like those in leather or lacquered leather armor). I don't agree though with some other posters that 'a medium sword is a medium sword is a medium sword', or in other words, 'all swords of similar length and mass are the same'. Also, I think it's fine to tweak things for D&D; it's a fantasy game after all, not a full-bore simulation of historical combat.
Here's my version of the Katana for D&D, in a spoiler block, for reference. Also the Wakizashi, Nodachi, and Zanbattou (the latter influenced as much by Sanouske of Rurouni Kenshin as much as by reading a bit about the historical Japanese cavalry-killer sword). Note that these use 3.0 weapon size rules, so 3.5ers might need to check the 3.0 SRD for reference. All of these are exotic melee weapons.
[sblock]Wakizashi.....25 gp.....2 lbs......AC 6.....Hardness 7.....HP 3.....Break DC 14
..........2d3 (Slashing) or 1d4 (Piercing).....T/C 18-20/x2 (19-20/x2)
..........*Each time the wakizashi strikes an enemy with total armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses of +5 or greater, or if it misses an enemy because of armor, shield, and natural armor AC bonuses that are due to force effects, metal shields, or armor made with more metal than scalemail, reduce the wakizashi's Hardness by 1. The wakizashi deals half damage, rounded up, against opponents with total armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses of +5 or greater.
..........*Likewise, reduce wakizashi Hardness by 1 if striking an object, unless the object has Hardness 5 or less, or unless the strike is to parry a weapon or projectile no more than one size category larger than the wakizashi.
..........*If the Hardness is reduced to zero, further reductions are applied to hit points instead, until repaired. These reductions in wakizashi Hardness and hit points last until it is repaired.
..........*A wakizashi can be used as a martial melee weapon if held two-handed by a character of small or medium size, or one-handed by a larger character. A tiny character requires the appropriate Exotic Weapon Proficiency in order to wield a wakizashi one-handed. Size limitations to wielding a weapon one-handed still apply.
..........*Masterwork wakizashi, if wielded proficiently, grant the added benefit of a +2 circumstance bonus on threat confirmation rolls, retained even if magically enhanced.
Katana.....50 gp.....3.5 lbs......AC 5.....Hardness 7.....HP 4.....Break DC 14
..........2d4 (Slashing) or 1d4 (Piercing).....T/C 18-20/x3 (19-20/x2)
..........*Each time the katana strikes an enemy with total armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses of +5 or greater, or if it misses an enemy because of armor, shield, and natural armor AC bonuses that are due to force effects, metal shields, or armor made with more metal than scalemail, reduce the katana's Hardness by 1. The katana deals half damage, rounded up, against opponents with total armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses of +5 or greater.
..........*Likewise, reduce katana Hardness by 1 if striking an object, unless the object has Hardness 5 or less, or unless the strike is to parry a weapon or projectile no more than one size category larger than the katana.
..........*If the Hardness is reduced to zero, further reductions are applied to hit points instead, until repaired. These reductions in katana Hardness and hit points last until it is repaired.
..........*A katana can be used as a martial melee weapon if held two-handed by a character of medium size, or one-handed by a larger character. To wield the katana in one hand requires Strength of at least 13, and this is a prerequisite for gaining any one-handed katana proficiency. A small character requires the appropriate Exotic Weapon Proficiency in order to wield a katana two-handed. Size limitations to wielding a weapon one-handed still apply.
..........*Masterwork katana, if wielded proficiently, grant the added benefit of a +2 circumstance bonus on threat confirmation rolls, retained even if magically enhanced.
No-Dachi (Nodatchi).....65 gp.....10 lbs......AC 4.....Hardness 10.....HP 10.....Break DC 17
..........3d4 (Slashing) or 1d6 (Piercing).....T/C 17-20/x2 (19-20/x2)
..........*Each time the no-dachi strikes an enemy with total armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses of +5 or greater, or if it misses an enemy because of armor, shield, and natural armor AC bonuses that are due to force effects, metal shields, or armor made with more metal than scalemail, reduce the no-dachi's Hardness by 1. The no-dachi deals half damage, rounded up, against opponents with total armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses of +5 or greater.
..........*Likewise, reduce no-dachi Hardness by 1 if striking an object, unless the object has Hardness 5 or less, or unless the strike is to parry a weapon or projectile no larger than the no-dachi.
..........*If the Hardness is reduced to zero, further reductions are applied to hit points instead, until repaired. These reductions in no-dachi Hardness and hit points last until it is repaired.
..........*A no-dachi can be used as a martial melee weapon if held two-handed by a character of large size, or one-handed by a larger character. To wield the no-dachi two-handed requires Strength of at least 15, and this is a prerequisite for gaining any two-handed no-dachi proficiency, while a Strength of 19 is required if the no-dachi is to be wielded one-handed, and likewise any one-handed no-dachi proficiency has a Strength prerequisite of 19+. Size limitations to wielding a weapon one-handed still apply.
..........*The no-dachi's great size incurs a -2 circumstance penalty on all attack rolls with it unless the user is at least large-sized, regardless of proficiency, and this stacks with any nonproficiency penalties when applicable. Likewise, unless the user is at least large-sized or has Strength of at least 19, they cannot perform a full-attack action with the no-dachi and cannot threaten an area with it.
..........*A no-dachi has reach, and can be used to strike an opponent up to 10 feet away. However, the no-dachi deals only 1d6 slashing damage to opponents within 5 feet, cannot be used for piercing damage against opponents within 5 feet, incurs a -2 attack penalty against opponents within 5 feet, and has its threat range reduced by half against opponents within 5 feet.
..........*Any proficient character wielding the no-dachi may use it to perform a Whirlwind Attack, as per the feat, but without need for that feat, and striking all opponents beyond 5 feet who are within the no-dachi's reach. Masterwork no-dachi, if wielded proficiently, grant the added benefit of a +2 circumstance bonus on threat confirmation rolls, retained even if magically enhanced.
Zanmato (Zanbattou)90 gp.....14 lbs......AC 4.....Hardness 10.....HP 13.....Break DC 20
..........4d4 (Slashing) or 1d8 (Piercing).....T/C 20/x3 (19-20/x2)
..........*A zanmato can be used as a martial melee weapon if held two-handed by a character of large size, or one-handed by a larger character. To wield the zanmato two-handed requires Strength of at least 15, and this is a prerequisite for gaining any two-handed zanmato proficiency, while a Strength of 19 is required if the zanmato is to be wielded one-handed, and likewise any one-handed zanmato proficiency has a Strength prerequisite of 19+. Size limitations to wielding a weapon one-handed still apply.
..........*The zanmato's great size incurs a -3 circumstance penalty on all attack rolls with it unless the user is at least large-sized, regardless of proficiency, and this stacks with any nonproficiency penalties when applicable. Likewise, unless the user is at least large-sized or has Strength of at least 19, they cannot perform a full-attack action with the zanmato and cannot threaten an area with it.
..........*A zanmato has reach, and can be used to strike an opponent up to 10 feet away. However, the zanmato deals only 1d6 slashing damage to opponents within 5 feet, cannot be used for piercing damage against opponents within 5 feet, incurs a -3 attack penalty against opponents within 5 feet, and has its threat range reduced by half against opponents within 5 feet.
..........*Any proficient character wielding the zanmato may use it to perform a Whirlwind Attack, as per the feat, but without need for that feat, and striking all opponents beyond 5 feet who are within the zanmato's reach.[/sblock]
Anyway..... I have no problem with the first poster's version of Katana stats. Katanas were made from poor steel and needed the folding techniques to work out impurities, but they were strong for cutting, not as much for impacts or thrusting though. European swords were tougher perhaps, and better for thrusting IIRC, but the katana had its advantages when cutting lightly-armored foes (like those in leather or lacquered leather armor). I don't agree though with some other posters that 'a medium sword is a medium sword is a medium sword', or in other words, 'all swords of similar length and mass are the same'. Also, I think it's fine to tweak things for D&D; it's a fantasy game after all, not a full-bore simulation of historical combat.
Here's my version of the Katana for D&D, in a spoiler block, for reference. Also the Wakizashi, Nodachi, and Zanbattou (the latter influenced as much by Sanouske of Rurouni Kenshin as much as by reading a bit about the historical Japanese cavalry-killer sword). Note that these use 3.0 weapon size rules, so 3.5ers might need to check the 3.0 SRD for reference. All of these are exotic melee weapons.
[sblock]Wakizashi.....25 gp.....2 lbs......AC 6.....Hardness 7.....HP 3.....Break DC 14
..........2d3 (Slashing) or 1d4 (Piercing).....T/C 18-20/x2 (19-20/x2)
..........*Each time the wakizashi strikes an enemy with total armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses of +5 or greater, or if it misses an enemy because of armor, shield, and natural armor AC bonuses that are due to force effects, metal shields, or armor made with more metal than scalemail, reduce the wakizashi's Hardness by 1. The wakizashi deals half damage, rounded up, against opponents with total armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses of +5 or greater.
..........*Likewise, reduce wakizashi Hardness by 1 if striking an object, unless the object has Hardness 5 or less, or unless the strike is to parry a weapon or projectile no more than one size category larger than the wakizashi.
..........*If the Hardness is reduced to zero, further reductions are applied to hit points instead, until repaired. These reductions in wakizashi Hardness and hit points last until it is repaired.
..........*A wakizashi can be used as a martial melee weapon if held two-handed by a character of small or medium size, or one-handed by a larger character. A tiny character requires the appropriate Exotic Weapon Proficiency in order to wield a wakizashi one-handed. Size limitations to wielding a weapon one-handed still apply.
..........*Masterwork wakizashi, if wielded proficiently, grant the added benefit of a +2 circumstance bonus on threat confirmation rolls, retained even if magically enhanced.
Katana.....50 gp.....3.5 lbs......AC 5.....Hardness 7.....HP 4.....Break DC 14
..........2d4 (Slashing) or 1d4 (Piercing).....T/C 18-20/x3 (19-20/x2)
..........*Each time the katana strikes an enemy with total armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses of +5 or greater, or if it misses an enemy because of armor, shield, and natural armor AC bonuses that are due to force effects, metal shields, or armor made with more metal than scalemail, reduce the katana's Hardness by 1. The katana deals half damage, rounded up, against opponents with total armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses of +5 or greater.
..........*Likewise, reduce katana Hardness by 1 if striking an object, unless the object has Hardness 5 or less, or unless the strike is to parry a weapon or projectile no more than one size category larger than the katana.
..........*If the Hardness is reduced to zero, further reductions are applied to hit points instead, until repaired. These reductions in katana Hardness and hit points last until it is repaired.
..........*A katana can be used as a martial melee weapon if held two-handed by a character of medium size, or one-handed by a larger character. To wield the katana in one hand requires Strength of at least 13, and this is a prerequisite for gaining any one-handed katana proficiency. A small character requires the appropriate Exotic Weapon Proficiency in order to wield a katana two-handed. Size limitations to wielding a weapon one-handed still apply.
..........*Masterwork katana, if wielded proficiently, grant the added benefit of a +2 circumstance bonus on threat confirmation rolls, retained even if magically enhanced.
No-Dachi (Nodatchi).....65 gp.....10 lbs......AC 4.....Hardness 10.....HP 10.....Break DC 17
..........3d4 (Slashing) or 1d6 (Piercing).....T/C 17-20/x2 (19-20/x2)
..........*Each time the no-dachi strikes an enemy with total armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses of +5 or greater, or if it misses an enemy because of armor, shield, and natural armor AC bonuses that are due to force effects, metal shields, or armor made with more metal than scalemail, reduce the no-dachi's Hardness by 1. The no-dachi deals half damage, rounded up, against opponents with total armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses of +5 or greater.
..........*Likewise, reduce no-dachi Hardness by 1 if striking an object, unless the object has Hardness 5 or less, or unless the strike is to parry a weapon or projectile no larger than the no-dachi.
..........*If the Hardness is reduced to zero, further reductions are applied to hit points instead, until repaired. These reductions in no-dachi Hardness and hit points last until it is repaired.
..........*A no-dachi can be used as a martial melee weapon if held two-handed by a character of large size, or one-handed by a larger character. To wield the no-dachi two-handed requires Strength of at least 15, and this is a prerequisite for gaining any two-handed no-dachi proficiency, while a Strength of 19 is required if the no-dachi is to be wielded one-handed, and likewise any one-handed no-dachi proficiency has a Strength prerequisite of 19+. Size limitations to wielding a weapon one-handed still apply.
..........*The no-dachi's great size incurs a -2 circumstance penalty on all attack rolls with it unless the user is at least large-sized, regardless of proficiency, and this stacks with any nonproficiency penalties when applicable. Likewise, unless the user is at least large-sized or has Strength of at least 19, they cannot perform a full-attack action with the no-dachi and cannot threaten an area with it.
..........*A no-dachi has reach, and can be used to strike an opponent up to 10 feet away. However, the no-dachi deals only 1d6 slashing damage to opponents within 5 feet, cannot be used for piercing damage against opponents within 5 feet, incurs a -2 attack penalty against opponents within 5 feet, and has its threat range reduced by half against opponents within 5 feet.
..........*Any proficient character wielding the no-dachi may use it to perform a Whirlwind Attack, as per the feat, but without need for that feat, and striking all opponents beyond 5 feet who are within the no-dachi's reach. Masterwork no-dachi, if wielded proficiently, grant the added benefit of a +2 circumstance bonus on threat confirmation rolls, retained even if magically enhanced.
Zanmato (Zanbattou)90 gp.....14 lbs......AC 4.....Hardness 10.....HP 13.....Break DC 20
..........4d4 (Slashing) or 1d8 (Piercing).....T/C 20/x3 (19-20/x2)
..........*A zanmato can be used as a martial melee weapon if held two-handed by a character of large size, or one-handed by a larger character. To wield the zanmato two-handed requires Strength of at least 15, and this is a prerequisite for gaining any two-handed zanmato proficiency, while a Strength of 19 is required if the zanmato is to be wielded one-handed, and likewise any one-handed zanmato proficiency has a Strength prerequisite of 19+. Size limitations to wielding a weapon one-handed still apply.
..........*The zanmato's great size incurs a -3 circumstance penalty on all attack rolls with it unless the user is at least large-sized, regardless of proficiency, and this stacks with any nonproficiency penalties when applicable. Likewise, unless the user is at least large-sized or has Strength of at least 19, they cannot perform a full-attack action with the zanmato and cannot threaten an area with it.
..........*A zanmato has reach, and can be used to strike an opponent up to 10 feet away. However, the zanmato deals only 1d6 slashing damage to opponents within 5 feet, cannot be used for piercing damage against opponents within 5 feet, incurs a -3 attack penalty against opponents within 5 feet, and has its threat range reduced by half against opponents within 5 feet.
..........*Any proficient character wielding the zanmato may use it to perform a Whirlwind Attack, as per the feat, but without need for that feat, and striking all opponents beyond 5 feet who are within the zanmato's reach.[/sblock]
trav_laney
First Post
Sounds like a good idea. The name of an item is exactly that - just a name. You should feel free to change them to fit your campaign. The same is true for the names of skills, classes, feats, spells, and monsters...not just equipment.Griffith Dragonlake said:
I see your point, but I also see the point that comrade raoul was trying to make. Yes, D&D is a simulation...and as such, it should be influenced by reality as much as possible to permit a wilfull suspension of disbelief. But it is also a game, and must have rules and balance in order to remain fair and fun for everyone. And nothing kills the fun of a gaming session faster than arguing "fiction vs. reality."Griffith Dragonlake said:
As for how physics can diminish the D&D experience, I have a war story to share.
In one game, we had a player argue with me for 20 minutes about terminal velocity and falling damage--even using kenimatic equations, estimated air density, and the approximate surface area of his character--to avoid his character taking the damage indicated in the rules. Eventually, I told the player that the rules were written for a reason, and we would be following them as-written. (There's nothing quite like gaming with an engineering student...)
Anyway, that was my advice then and it is my advice now. I say, let reality flavor your game...not define it. For every person who wants a game to be as close to reality as possible, there is someone else at the table who wants it to be as far from reality as possible. And on a personal note, from one engineering student to another: If you think it is fun to use kinematics and integral calculus to determine the inertia of your character as he impacts the ground from a free-fall, you should be medicated.
But I digress.
In my campaign, the katana is just another word for bastard sword. I don't even require it to be masterworked...but a character can certainly purchase a masterworked one if he so desires. If I were going to tweak its crit, I would just make it either x3 or 19-20/x2...definately not both. No SRD weapon has a 19-20/x3 crit range...and I'm pretty sure the reason for that is game balance.
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Griffith Dragonlake
First Post
Agreed. I also think that each individual GM should adjust the fiction:reality ratio to suit the needs of their game.trav_laney said:
Hence the beauty of the d20 system allowing a great deal of flexibility and customization to apply house rules.
trav_laney said:
I think all of us have had this experience at least once in our D&D career.
frankthedm
First Post
A judicous use of Power attack with a two handed weapon can accomplish this. As long as you avoid the DMs who treat swinging a blade at a hard solid object as something a sword blade is especially vulnerable to.Nifft said:
trav_laney
First Post
...or if "Tank" is the name of the 1st level commoner who runs the inn.frankthedm said:
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
Nifft said:
Nifft, yet again I am going to have to snag your suggestion
IMHO this fits nicely into the typically portrayed usage of a katana.
Spatzimaus
First Post
Since everyone seems to be giving their versions, here's what we did IMC.
First, Exotic Weapons are now handled differently across the board. Instead of being an "Exotic Weapon" (requires an EWP to use), it's now a Martial Weapon that also has features that "unlock" with the right EWP feat. Each EWP Feat covers a group of similar weapons; they don't usually give a -4 nonproficiency penalty, but have some other limitation instead.
For instance, there's EWP: Heavy Weapons. With this Feat, certain weapons can be wielded as if they were one size lighter. Without it, you can use them as if they were Martial weapons, but you won't be able to get the EWP's bonus. This group includes the Bastard Sword, Dwarven Waraxe, Elven Thinblade, Fullblade, and so on.
There's also EWP: Fine Weapons. With this Feat, the crit multiplier increases by 1. This includes the Kukri, among others.
We've got a dozen of these; EWP (Monk Weapons) lets you use the Monk unarmed BAB progression for certain items, EWP (Double Weapons) lets you use it as a dual weapon, and so on. It's made EWP feats much more popular, since it means you can use a weapon similar to your ideal one without spending another Feat.
So, the Bastard Sword is 1d10 damage with one EWP (Heavy Weapons). Our Katana is a 2d4 weapon with two EWPs (Heavy and Fine).
(The Wakizashi is 2d3 with Heavy and Fine, for instance, which makes it a great offhand weapon for people who have those feats.)
If you don't have any EWPs, it's a weapon with barely more damage than a longsword, but that requires wielding 2-handed. With only EWP: Heavy, it's almost as good as the Bastard Sword and is slightly better than a longsword. But with both EWPs, it's better than all of them. And by using two dice instead of one big one, it's a more consistent damage source. End result: it's a bad choice for low-level people, but high-level Fighters will prefer a weapon with multiple EWPs.
First, Exotic Weapons are now handled differently across the board. Instead of being an "Exotic Weapon" (requires an EWP to use), it's now a Martial Weapon that also has features that "unlock" with the right EWP feat. Each EWP Feat covers a group of similar weapons; they don't usually give a -4 nonproficiency penalty, but have some other limitation instead.
For instance, there's EWP: Heavy Weapons. With this Feat, certain weapons can be wielded as if they were one size lighter. Without it, you can use them as if they were Martial weapons, but you won't be able to get the EWP's bonus. This group includes the Bastard Sword, Dwarven Waraxe, Elven Thinblade, Fullblade, and so on.
There's also EWP: Fine Weapons. With this Feat, the crit multiplier increases by 1. This includes the Kukri, among others.
We've got a dozen of these; EWP (Monk Weapons) lets you use the Monk unarmed BAB progression for certain items, EWP (Double Weapons) lets you use it as a dual weapon, and so on. It's made EWP feats much more popular, since it means you can use a weapon similar to your ideal one without spending another Feat.
So, the Bastard Sword is 1d10 damage with one EWP (Heavy Weapons). Our Katana is a 2d4 weapon with two EWPs (Heavy and Fine).
(The Wakizashi is 2d3 with Heavy and Fine, for instance, which makes it a great offhand weapon for people who have those feats.)
If you don't have any EWPs, it's a weapon with barely more damage than a longsword, but that requires wielding 2-handed. With only EWP: Heavy, it's almost as good as the Bastard Sword and is slightly better than a longsword. But with both EWPs, it's better than all of them. And by using two dice instead of one big one, it's a more consistent damage source. End result: it's a bad choice for low-level people, but high-level Fighters will prefer a weapon with multiple EWPs.
HeavenShallBurn
First Post
OMG! Like KATANAS R So 1337!!!
Joking aside they were actually shorter than what we tend to call "longswords" and what D&D calls a "bastard sword" though it varied with time period. Most I know of had a blade of between 24 and 28 inches but the hilt was relatively longer than European swords which made it longer than a European sword with an equivalent blade length. They weren't really all that wonderful, the workmanship was good but as others said that was compensation for iron being rare and of poor quality in the japanese islands. They were made for a drawing cut across unarmored or very lightly armored opponents, against more solid armor they weren't very effective and the brittleness of their edge made them prone to fracturing. Really they were a backup for members of the warrior-class who primarily fought as horse archers or using spears. They got the whole mystical spirit/sword stuff after the wars calmed down and the culture needed something else to focus on.
Mechanically, call it a slashing version of a rapier, no better.
Joking aside they were actually shorter than what we tend to call "longswords" and what D&D calls a "bastard sword" though it varied with time period. Most I know of had a blade of between 24 and 28 inches but the hilt was relatively longer than European swords which made it longer than a European sword with an equivalent blade length. They weren't really all that wonderful, the workmanship was good but as others said that was compensation for iron being rare and of poor quality in the japanese islands. They were made for a drawing cut across unarmored or very lightly armored opponents, against more solid armor they weren't very effective and the brittleness of their edge made them prone to fracturing. Really they were a backup for members of the warrior-class who primarily fought as horse archers or using spears. They got the whole mystical spirit/sword stuff after the wars calmed down and the culture needed something else to focus on.
Mechanically, call it a slashing version of a rapier, no better.
