A Dozen Crossbows Aimed at You ..

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I did run across one of these situations that amused me.

One DM I played with had a 'solution to the problem' in 3.0 - in situations like the OPs - covering someone with ranged weapons gave you a big bonus to hit and target had to make a DC 15 fort save or die. Those mobs of low level guys are suddenly pretty scary.

Personally not something I liked, but happy to go along with it as it fit the kind of game he wanted to run.

Rule was never got invoked again after we turned the trick round and used it on a BBEG, who decided to 'make our day' - failed his save and promptly died. Unlucky, but that's the way the dice roll sometimes?


Out of game, we had half-seriously discussed using our leadership entitlement to recruit lots of low level crossbow sneaky rangers. Have them sneak up and surround our targets. In the end we decided that it'd be mean to our poor GM. (And that the huge number of prisoners would be a real pain)



IME, the real problem with rules like this is when they are sprung by suprise. You find yourself in that situation and suddenly theres all kinds of new rules about sudden death, max damage and so forth. From a players perspective, it can suck to think you knew what your character was capable of, only to find out it isn't that way. As long as it's spelled out upfront, then fine by me. Or at least implied in the tone of game the GM sold us.

Also if NPCs have script immunity to the rules - that's also kinda cheap.

 

[Henry]

Seriously, could you imagine the Dread Pirate Roberts and Princess Buttercup surrendering just because there were a few guards with crossbows aimed at them? Inconcievable!

You keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means.

Like Cheese to a mouse...

 

[delericho]

The thing that bugs me most about the situation is the unspoken assumption that the guards somehow just popped up, and were able to surround the PCs, crossbows levelled, without the PCs having opportunity to do anything about it.

Where were the Spot and Listen checks? What were the PCs' actions while the guards were moving into position.

Incidentally, the same applies to the 'knife at throat' scenario. In that case, I would rule that the PC counted as helpless and allow a Coup de Grace. However, getting to that position in the first place is a rather difficult proposition by the rules, since you'd really need the target to be helpless in the first place. (A Grapple wouldn't do it. A Grapple and Pin wouldn't do it. I probably would allow it in conjunction with the Grapple if performed by an Assassin using his Death Attack ability - although it's not strictly rules-legal, it feels right enough by the spirit of the rules for me to let it fly.)

 

[Raven Crowking]

Actually, on further thought, The Princess Bride might be modelled pretty well using the D&D rules. First, Wesley's DM had him climb the Cliffs of Insanity. Then he had to face a challenging sworsman. Then a giant. Then he took poison, and while he may have spent several years developing an immunity, he might have still taken incidental Con damage. Then he rolled down a hill. Then he went through the Fire Swamp.

Then, and only then the DM used the "mooks with crossbows" bit. The Dread Pirate Roberts was down on hit points, and had perhaps taken some ability damage. Softened up that much, it is quite possible that the mooks offered a serious threat.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

The thing that bugs me most about the situation is the unspoken assumption that the guards somehow just popped up, and were able to surround the PCs, crossbows levelled, without the PCs having opportunity to do anything about it.

The PCs were distracted by filing the taxes for an orphanage at the Cook County Assessor's Office. Plus, they wer fatigued from being up all night driving from the Palace Hotel Ballroom.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Rule was never got invoked again after we turned the trick round and used it on a BBEG, who decided to 'make our day' - failed his save and promptly died. Unlucky, but that's the way the dice roll sometimes?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander....

Also if NPCs have script immunity to the rules - that's also kinda cheap.

.....But what's good for the gander isn't always good for the goose. IMC, Action Points are for PCs only.


RC

 

[Delta]

Clearly, PCs prevail. That's how D&D is set up. If Elric can go chopping through entire shiploads of soldiers, then so can equivalent D&D PCs. I wouldn't want it any other way.

Now for a playgroup that doesn't like D&D being set up that way, there are some options:
(a) Slow down XP or cap levels at whatever you feel appropriate -- 5th or 6th?
(b) Use the "insta-kill" variant from DMG so any 20-20-hit instantly kills any target. (So there's at least a risk the PC should consider, more with more foes.)

Personally I don't need either of these, myself.

 

[Psion]

I like the idea of "tougher rules + action points" personally, so that the players choose when they get script immunity,

Letting the players choose when they get script immunity isn't really going to change the scenario much.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

With high level characters, I usually just think "What would Pai Mei do?" Pai Mei was the absolute rat-bastard genius martial arts master from Kill Bill II. Would he care if a bunch of nobodies started firing crossbows at him? He'd probably catch them all and them fire them back at the shooters with his bare hands. That's the sort of power level you're usually dealing with after about level 15 or so. You've got the fighter with a high enough AC that he can only be hit on a 20, if you manage to beat his cloak of displacement. The wizard has so much magical defense up he's practically invulnerable. And he can kill a plaza full of people by sneezing. The rogue is already behind them lining up a surprise sneak attack.

Still Pai Mei only has 3-18 Constitution just like any other human. Everyone has a weakness that's exploitable by those who lack awesome powers of destruction.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Letting the players choose when they get script immunity isn't really going to change the scenario much.

I know. But, IMC, I use the Personality Feats from Dynasties and Demogogues. Everyone gets one for free. They are where you get your Action Points from. So, they are a limited resource that the PCs have "paid" for, and they add to role-playing because you meet RP conditions during a game session to get them.

I don't care that the PCs are able to escape the guards. When Bond "resigned" in License to Kill, or when he's running from the armed guards in Tomorrow Never Dies, he escapes without significant injury. Likewise Luke Skywalker swinging over the pit in Star Wars while dozens of stormtroopers ("Look at these blast points. Only Imperial Stormtroopers can be so precise." ) shoot and miss.

What I care about is that there appears to be an element of danger for the players (which adds to their fun) and that they are making meaningful decisions -- by which I mean that the decision to use an Action Point means that you no longer have that resource right now, whereas in the standard rules the 12 guards are lucky if they can do anything significant to the 15th level fighter who is tearing them apart.

YMMV, of course.


RC


EDIT: Of course, I agree with Dr. Awkward, too. As I mentioned earlier, even with my "tougher" rules, the odds are pretty good that a 15th level fighter is going to tear through 12 2nd level guards without using an Action Point. Sometimes, PCs ought to just kick ass...ithat's what shows how much progress you've made!