A Dozen Crossbows Aimed at You ..

[Felix]

but some posters in the illogical rules thread said that's no good

Link?

 

[Cedric]

Reminds me of any old joke, story...heck, not sure where I heard it.

I'm the High Level Character and the guards are staring at me over the tops of their crossbows, I have to stop and look around then say, "Now...ask yourself boys, am I trapped in here with you? Or are you trapped in here with me?"

 

[JoeGKushner]

The guards had U'darn surrounded.

he wasn't worried. His armor was the Armor of Ten Thousand Suns, a four thousand year old artifact that repelled arrows. His sword, The Life Crusher, had ended the threat of the elder red wyrm Golsthar.

What did concern him though, was why these guards were after him. That was the real problem....

 

[paradox42]

You really want to make this a difficult situation for the PCs? Have the guards rush to grapple and subdue. If you have a large number of guards, once one of them initiates a successful grapple, the PCs are in a tough spot. Here's the relevant bits:



So, once one guard succeeds at a grapple check, three more guards pile on with automatic successes and no AoOs. Plus, the PC only gets to make one counter-grapple versus the guards' four grapple checks (ostensibly to pin the PC). The PC must beat all four guards' grapple to escape. And all the while any guards who aren't involved in the grapple can kick the snot out of a PC who probably doesn't have a Dexterity bonus to defense and can't fight fight back.

Much better than loaded crossbows.

Three words: Freedom of Movement. 2nd-level guards can't really do much about that.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Seriously, could you imagine the Dread Pirate Roberts and Princess Buttercup surrendering just because there were a few guards with crossbows aimed at them? Inconcievable!

 

[Psion]

Seriously, could you imagine the Dread Pirate Roberts and Princess Buttercup surrendering just because there were a few guards with crossbows aimed at them? Inconcievable!

Situations like this are quite the conundrum. People say RPGs are flawed if they are either more or less deadly than the movies. But that's an impossible goal since movies (or books) have writers with authorial control. In games, we surrender authorial control to resolution by rules and dice.

Of course we could shape our rules to resemble the same sorts of rules competent authors would use, to give players script immunity when they need it and make them vulnerable when they should be (and have the players know it...), but that could complicate the game in a hurry.

 

[Pbartender]

Three words: Freedom of Movement. 2nd-level guards can't really do much about that.

No they can't... It's also less useful on PCs with Improved Grapple, or a very high Escape Artist skill.

...but of course not every adventurer has those particular abilities available. In my very personal experience, very few do. And those that do... Hey, they deserve a chance to show it off now and again.

 

[Schmoe]

Actually, I don't think the situation stretches credibility too much. Depending on the circumstances, those dozen crossbowmen could be a threat even to high level PCs.

Consider a case where the guards are "regulars" of about 2nd level, with perhaps a +1 dex bonus and either weapon focus or masterwork bolts, for a total of +4 to hit.

Now our PC is a 15th level wizard who was calmly walking along, minding his own business. Without spells and magic items active, his AC is likely no more than about 12, and his flat-footed AC will be 10. His HP are probably no more than 70 or so, possibly less.

Again, without spells and magic items, those dozen regular guards will hit an average of about 9 times, with the potential to do 9-72 points of damage, or 9-90 if they are heavy x-bows. There's probably one critical hit in there, so make the damage 10-80 or 10-100. There's certainly the potential, even if just a slim chance, to kill the PC. Make the guards seasoned veterans (say 4th-5th level), and it becomes very likely they will seriously injure, or perhaps kill, the PC. This all makes sense to me.

The difference, of course, comes with spells and magic items. These are the arcane wards that deflect bolts, cause attacks to glance off of rock hard skin, blur the target, give the bearer unnatural health, etc. In that context, there's nothing unrealistic at all about the 15th level PC escaping relatively unscathed. After all, how can a regular joe be expected to deal with such powerful magic?

 

[Crust]

It's arguable both ways.

The guards could be real good (several levels in fighter/scout/order of the bow/etc.) and cost the local baron or king oodles of gold to employ, and in that case, the PCs could be in real danger.

One could also imagine the end scene from Unforgiven, where Clint has half-a-dozen pistols aimed right at him. Once he strikes, none of the stuttering gunslingers hit him, and he, with obviously more levels or experience than them, guns them all down without suffering a scratch.

My players would certainly expect to be able to take half-a-dozen crossbow bolts for 1d8 or 1d10 damage and rush the guards, which is, in my opinion, not right. Stubborn players will expect the DM to cling to the rules, no matter how illogical they may seem in certain situations, because players (my players at least) depend upon the exploitation of hazy rules, and they love shaking their heads when I fudge things in pursuit of logic.

If that scenario unfolded at my table, I would clearly warn my players that "You're caught, and if you make a move, you will be sorely wounded, if not killed outright." Just to make things "realistic," I would have every guard automatically hit a PC (or more than one PC depending on the number of guards), and every crossbow would do the maximum damage.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Situations like this are quite the conundrum. People say RPGs are flawed if they are either more or less deadly than the movies. But that's an impossible goal since movies (or books) have writers with authorial control. In games, we surrender authorial control to resolution by rules and dice.

Of course we could shape our rules to resemble the same sorts of rules competent authors would use, to give players script immunity when they need it and make them vulnerable when they should be (and have the players know it...), but that could complicate the game in a hurry.

I like the idea of "tougher rules + action points" personally, so that the players choose when they get script immunity, but it is not an unlimited resource. But, then, even with what I consider "tougher rules" the odds are good that Mr 15th Level is gonna walk without invoking an AP.

RC