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A Far Out Rant

Hussar

Legend
Infernal Teddy said:
The Far Realm and it's inhabitants are not evil - they do not normally even comprehend our existance. We are as uncomprehendable to them, as they to us. Most of these "creatures" count (in my game, at least) as forces of nature (And as what else would one count the likes of Cthulhu, unless you've been rading too much of the Vault).

The Horror of the mythos is not the power and the evil of the creatures, but our own insignificance.

I'm just picking this quote out of the bunch since there are a number of similar sentiments.

There's a problem with this though. You've ascribed a motive to the Far Realms beings. You cannot definitively say they are or aren't evil based on their thought processes, since their thoughts are completely alien. Whether they comprehend us or not is also unknowable, again, since we cannot know their thought processes.

All we can know is that they are malignant, destructive and antithetical to life and existence in the material plane. They don't just sit and grow, but, rather, go on apparent rampages devouring all before them. Since we cannot know why they do this, we can only know what they do. Their actions certainly look evil. They fit the description of evil. Thus, they are evil.
 

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Set

First Post
To me the difference between 'evil' and the Far Realms beasties is the difference between a genocidal maniac and my clearing brush in the backyard.

That tree is blocking my view or whatever, and I go hack it down, with no regard whatsoever for the millions of tiny creatures who live in, on or because of that tree. It's just not my problem. Tough luck for them.

A Far Realms beastie thinks the same of us. Tough luck that when they finish clearing out our natural ecosystem, violating our laws of nature and slopping their corrosive toxic spew around to make the world 'cozy' for themselves, we are all going to be extinct. I don't see them *maliciously* destroying material plane life, as being fundementally incompatible with it. For them to expand into this reality, all of us have to die. To build a housing complex, we have to cut down dozens, sometimes hundreds of trees, tear up the ground, destroy nests and burrows, etc.

To an anaerobic bacteria, a farmer plowing under his fields for the next harvest is a genocidal massacre beyond comprehension. And he's not doing evil, he's just feeding his family and making a living. The Far Realms beastie that comes into our world and begins exuding it's taint, breaking down our reality and creating 'cysts' of Far Realm space is doing the same thing, and the vast majority of Far Realms critters regard us as no more important than we regard those bacteria...

*Some* Far Realms beasties are evil, being aware of the sentience of the lives they are destroying. Others don't seem to communicate at all with material plane life, and might not have the slightest clue that the 'stuff' infesting the material plane is capable of holding a conversation. Is this willful ignorance 'evil?' Most people, including me, happily ignore the fact that trees can communicate with each other and can feel pain. Is it evil to cut them down?

Is it evil when lions kill baby hyenas and baby cheetahs to eliminate the competition?

Is it evil when my cat plays with a half-dead mouse for an hour and a half, before getting bored and wandering off, leaving it to die of shock?

I think the whole argument boils down to one problem;

'Alignments' are an artificial game construct, and increasingly useless for any sort of meaningful discussion of ethics or morality.
 

Jorren

Explorer
Set said:
I think the whole argument boils down to one problem;

'Alignments' are an artificial game construct, and increasingly useless for any sort of meaningful discussion of ethics or morality.

I think the themes associated with a Lovecraftian universe involving alien beings antithetical to rationality just don't mesh well with the objective morality of a D&D universe that involve clear personifications of good and evil.

As far as I am concerned I have both D&D and Call of Cthulhu on my gaming shelf and I'm not sure they mix well together. It's sort of like a peanut butter and turkey sandwich; edible but not quite 'right'.
 

S'mon

Legend
Jorren said:
I think the themes associated with a Lovecraftian universe involving alien beings antithetical to rationality just don't mesh well with the objective morality of a D&D universe that involve clear personifications of good and evil.

I don't know; I think this thread has been quite thought provoking. One point about the evil of demons & devils is that to really enjoy hurting you they have to assign a kind of value to you. Whereas Godzilla or Cthulu just don't. Still, it's not clear from my reading of the D&D alignment system whether it's actions (legal actus reus) or mindset (legal mens rea) that determines alignment within the system. Hussar says it's sentience + actions, without much regard for what links the two. Neutrality used to be the "I don't care" alignment, now "I don't care" seems to be compatible with an Evil tag.
 

Infernal Teddy

Explorer
I think if there were a kind of "Compass" that pointed at certain alignments, and you took it to the far realm, it would fould up on itself and turn into a tentacled butterfly with teeth
 

Hussar

Legend
S'mon said:
I don't know; I think this thread has been quite thought provoking. One point about the evil of demons & devils is that to really enjoy hurting you they have to assign a kind of value to you. Whereas Godzilla or Cthulu just don't. Still, it's not clear from my reading of the D&D alignment system whether it's actions (legal actus reus) or mindset (legal mens rea) that determines alignment within the system. Hussar says it's sentience + actions, without much regard for what links the two. Neutrality used to be the "I don't care" alignment, now "I don't care" seems to be compatible with an Evil tag.

Certainly "I don't care" = Neutral. However, neutral also means that you lack any strong feelings in any direction. You will generally go along with society's norms simply because that's easier than going against them.

The problem is, you can't say that Far Realms creatures don't care. That's ascribing motive (or lack thereof). We cannot know if they care or not. We cannot know if they don't notice us or they really like giving people tentacles. That's the whole point of being unknowable.

So, since we cannot actually fathom their motives, we can only look at their actions. Their actions are certainly evil - wantonly destructive, complete disregard for life, inflicts pain on others, etc. etc.

People keep bringing up animals. That doesn't equate though. For one, we know the motivations of animals. They want to eat and/or protect their territory. Plus, since the animals cannot conceive of their actions, they get a free pass. Anything mindless also gets a free pass. The same goes for Far Realms beings. The FR oozes are neutral. They don't have any intelligence, thus they are neutral as per RAW.

However, intelligent Far Realms creatures are neither animals nor mindless, thus, by RAW they have an alignment. Since we cannot know their motives, we can only judge by their actions. Thus, I argue that they are evil.

'Alignments' are an artificial game construct, and increasingly useless for any sort of meaningful discussion of ethics or morality.

Now this I entirely agree with. I am in no way trying to pass any sort of real world ethical judgment upon Far Realms creatures. I am speaking in a pure game mechanics. Honestly, I can see the argument for making them neutral. I understand. And, I mostly agree. However, from a mechanical POV, they're pretty clearly evil.
 

S'mon

Legend
So, FR critters aren't clearly evil in genuine moral/philosophical terms, but The RAW - represented in game by the Multiverse or "the forces that shape the Multiverse", whatever those are - tags FR critters as Evil. Makes sense to me.
 

Arkhandus

First Post
Far Realms inhabitants have no essence from the D&D multiverse's alignment forces. They are not native to the Great Wheel. Their reality is not governed by the same forces, otherwise Material Plane natives would be able to comprehend them and not be driven mad by their mere presence/gaze/telepathic contact.

The multiverse has these alignment forces as actual forces, not just perceptions or repercussions; a Demon is Evil because it is literally composed of Evil to some extent; a mortal becomes evil by allowing that same essence amidst the multiverse to influence his/her/its actions, and thereby absorbing some raw Evil into themselves from the environment (just as a wizard might cast an Evil spell, such as Animate Dead, using the magical energies of the surrounding area; which must obviously include some Evil energy).

At least, it's something like that. Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are incarnate forces that make up large, even infinite, portions of the D&D multiverse. They are not mere matters of perception; Bob may hate his neighbor Joe and think him an evil SOB, but that doesn't mean Bob's casting of Holy Word is going to smite Joe; because Bob's perceptions and beliefs, no matter how strong, do not make Joe evil, not even to Bob's own magic spells. Indeed, Bob himself may be evil (in which case he couldn't cast Holy Word, but still...), and Joe could be good, despite Bob's skewed beliefs that Joe is evil and Bob is good.

A Far Realms inhabitant does not carry any essence of 'evil' or 'chaos' in it, because evil and chaos either don't exist in its reality, or have different definitions there, and do not synch up with the multiverse's forces of evil and chaos. The creature is incomprehensible and anathema to normal reality in the D&D multiverse. It holds no essence of Evil from the multiverse; it's own essence may be anathema to the intrusion of such Evil essence.

Even if it was the Far Realms' equivalent of chaotic evil, the multiverse wouldn't be able to identify that, let alone manage to force some of its own Evil energy into the Far Realmsian horror and expect that energy to stick around; the critter's own essence may be like antimatter to it, destroying or expunging the 'alien' energies of the multiverse from its body. Without recognizeable Evil taint in the creature, a cleric's Holy Word or Detect Evil spell won't be able to identify the target (and react violently to any Evil essence in it; since it has ^!&snarf7*(4)a1!>? essence instead of Evil essence, there's no discernable Evil within it for a Holy Word to smite).

A Far Realmser may act in what mortals define as an 'evil' manner, but it sure as heck doesn't understand the Great Wheel multiverse's concept of 'evil'. It would be like a colorblind dog trying to understand color, as you point out objects and describe their color; he sure as heck doesn't see any difference. And he probably doesn't know what you're saying; you're speaking in wierd barks, yips, and whimpers as far as he's concerned.

The Far Realmser, basically, is no more susceptible to alignment than a common animal or insect. He/she/it/blue/12/!%!^ isn't going to comprehend morality any better than a simple-minded creature would; not because he's stupid, but because his concepts of reality are wildly different and alien, with little or no similarities.

As far as he knows, you're no different from the 'dirt' or 'grass' equivalents in the Far Realm; he may believe the raindrops falling from the sky are more intelligent than you, because to his idea of reality, perhaps everything is alive, and there's nothing special about being alive; ergo nothing has any intrinsic value, and you're no more important or sentient than a rock or a spider or yesterday's lunch or the turd that was yesterday's breakfast. :\

To the Far Realmsian concepts of reality, mere sentience may be without value, and only gargantuan, *nth-dimensional thinking capacity qualifies as 'sentient' and possessing value. And in their reality, that means anything similar to humans in thought capacities is, compared to everything else in their reality, as offensively stupid and pathetic in mental faculty as a dung beetle. Their freakin' air particles are probably sentient and constantly screaming in protest to the gargantuan monstrosities that inhale and consume them every second.....
 


Set

First Post
S'mon said:
So, FR critters aren't clearly evil in genuine moral/philosophical terms, but The RAW - represented in game by the Multiverse or "the forces that shape the Multiverse", whatever those are - tags FR critters as Evil. Makes sense to me.

Of course, I saw 'FR critters' and thought, 'Forgotten Realms critters?' Heh.

In 3.5 terms, one could see Far Realms beasties as being like Skeletons. Evil inherently, but not consciously. Absent of orders to do anything, a Skeleton will stand there doing nothing until it falls apart. Given orders to perform an evil act, it will do evil with no malice in it's non-existent heart. Given orders to perform a good act, it will do good with an equal lack of benevolent intent.

And yet it's evil, through no actions of it's own, bereft of any ability to make an ethical or moral choice.

While a human has to choose to be good, or evil, some things are just evil (or good) because 'the universe works that way.'
 

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