A Far Out Rant

[Tequila Sunrise]

The ones that intentionally, for whatever reason, make a habit of killing or warping mortals are evil. The ones that don't are probably neutral.

 

[klofft]

When I DM all monsters have alignments. Period. This is Dungeons & Dragons, not Far Realms and Philosophies.

Alright, if I were ever to run a game that did away with alignment completely, that would be different...

TS, I basically feel the same way, as I have had brief discussions here before about the alignment of the Far Realm. The D&D alignment RAW have an objective moral universe as their foundation. To say that there is another "objective" reality beyond this one is a logical fallacy. IMO, if the Far Realm denizens are not broadly defineable as "evil" in the same way as fiends are, even if their motives and methods differ widely, they can't work in an alignment system (hence the suggestion of some that the Far Realm be mechanically "beyond alignment," which doesn't work for me personally.)

IMC, the Far Realm is at the "bottom" of the lower planes, formed of the metaphysical detritus, if you will, of acts of cosmic evil in the universe. From my campaign notes (note that Nerull is basically a "Satan" figure in my cosmology):

Something else has occurred on the Lower Outer Planes. As intelligent beings in the universe continue to choose their own will over the will of Providence, a sort of cosmic backlash, a metaphysical cancer, has formed and continues to grow, bubbling up from the darkest places of the universe. This cancer is certainly intelligent, and its malevolence extends even to the forces of “evil” (more traditionally understood). It seems to be rooted primarily in the Abyss, but it is encountered on other planes as well, and has seeped onto the material plane in places. Some spirits (gods) have taken stewardship of this phenomenon and have promoted it. New intelligent beings have appeared in its wake, shaped by these gods. Other intelligent beings worship it. Not recognizing the existential disorder that his will has cost the universe, Nerull has also ultimately accepted this damage as his own. While further development of this idea may be necessary in the future, this is a basic explanation for elements of the “Far Realm” as they turn up in published materials, as well as the cosmic evil of the obyriths in the Abyss.

This works for me.
C

 

[Arashi Ravenblade]

Some have already said it, but i feel that the beings of the far realms are to us as we are to ants. We are so far above ants in our thinking and our ability that they couldnt even being to grasp what we do, just like most people dont think insects truly think or feel anything. So too might the Far Realmers think of us. We might be so primative and bug like that they see us as moving objects not possessing any form of thought other than to do what we do.
So like us they feel no remorse for killing us or walking over our cities. The same as we do to such small beings as the ant.

Now the D&D universe exists on a set of rules, the universe is goverend by good, evil, law, chaos and neutrality. When a being who enters our universe from another one that does not possess such laws, the universe automatically assigns them one based on their actions. So lets say a far Realmers comes through a tear in reality and treads all over a city killing hundreds, the Universe understands this being as intelligent or sentiant but because of it's action makes it Neutral Evil, so spells that detect such things register that as NE, when in reality, in his own universe he, she or it wouldnt register at all. In fact an ability to detect alignment might not function at all.

Just a thought.

 

[Shadeydm]

Cthulhu has an alignment it listed in my AD&D Deities & Demigods along with Hastur and other HPLovecraft goodness.

 

[klofft]

Some have already said it, but i feel that the beings of the far realms are to us as we are to ants. We are so far above ants in our thinking and our ability that they couldnt even being to grasp what we do, just like most people dont think insects truly think or feel anything. So too might the Far Realmers think of us. We might be so primative and bug like that they see us as moving objects not possessing any form of thought other than to do what we do.
So like us they feel no remorse for killing us or walking over our cities. The same as we do to such small beings as the ant.

Except that the D&D RAW also make a distinction between sentient and nonsentient life (based on INT). A 50 INT's thoughts may be far beyond the capacity of a 10 INT to understand, but that doesn't make the 10 INT nonsentient or irrational or the 50 INT "beyond reason" or "superrational."

 

[frankthedm]

Well, considering that the Far Realms is based on Lovecraft, painting them evil isn't all that hard. They're not evil in the "We want to take over the world and eat your soul" kind of demonic or devilish evil. No, they're evil in the sense of "We are here to completely obliterate all life and twist and pervert it for our own purposes".

When the Far realm moves in, those who get obliterated are the lucky ones.

Far realm is not evil in itself, though only the most evil or insane would be willing the accept the risk dealing with the far realm incours. Getting extra power for a 1 in 1d1,000,000 chance of exposing the Multiverse to a fate far wose than death is not the act of someone going to any upper plane opon demise.

 

[frankthedm]

Now the D&D universe exists on a set of rules, the universe is goverend by good, evil, law, chaos and neutrality. When a being who enters our universe from another one that does not possess such laws, the universe automatically assigns them one based on their actions. So lets say a far Realmers comes through a tear in reality and treads all over a city killing hundreds, the Universe understands this being as intelligent or sentiant but because of it's action makes it Neutral Evil, so spells that detect such things register that as NE, when in reality, in his own universe he, she or it wouldnt register at all. In fact an ability to detect alignment might not function at all.

Just a thought.

A very good thought. This is a good way to run Far realm things that take up residence. Although some might be strong enough to "bring some of thier own 'rules' with them.

Another Idea i had is if the creature does not operate by the alignment system, it is always treated as being the most damaging result for spells and effects. In effect, the Multiverse "stacking the deck" against this non conforming intruder. Thus It always takes the extra damage from an Holy, unholy, lawful or chaotic weapons / spells, all alignment smites work on it, Pro alignment effects all work equally effective and if it does not take a creature type, any bane works on it as well.

 

[Asmor]

Huh? Who'se Mary Sue and what dose she have to do with the conversation?

I had to look that up too... Wikipedia to the rescue! In a nutshell, a "Mary Sue" is something which is almost totally cliché.

Back on topic, stick me in the "far realms == neutral/alignment-less" camp. The far realm, and its denizens, are no more evil than a hurricane or a shark. Of course, in my own personal far realm, the denizens thereof aren't intelligent. They're just forces of nature, or, rather, forces of un-nature. If one of them should unfortunately find itself on the prime material, or some other "real" plane, it will just what everything tries to do... Survive. The catch is, its survival and yours are mutually exclusive...

 

[Asmor]

Just read Paradox's story. Freaking awesome, man!

 

[tomBitonti]

How about the realm of "Event Horizon"

Hi,

Reading through these posts (and a rather cool story), I am wondering how folks see the realm visited in the movie Event Horizon. Far realm, or a layer of the abyss?

Leaving aside problems with the movie (I was disappointed, although I thought that the basic idea was a good one; a problem in execution, and a failure to make the best use of atmosphere, and too much of a fall-back on simple gore) ...

... the reason for my question is that the depiction of the effects of the Event Horizon realm seems to match some some versions of the Far Realm better than it seems to match layers of the abyss.

Or perhaps, D&D has over-diluted the evil of the abyss, to the point that we now look to the Far Realm to find a higher degree of evil.

Anyways, my 2 cents.

Thx,

Tom Bitonti