A Far Out Rant

Hussar said:
If the creature is mindless, then fine, no alignment, same as objects and animals. However, if it is sentient and destroys indescriminantly, then its evil.

What if it does what it does from a completely different understanding of how reality works? It might not comprehend that killing something in our multiverse is evil. Death as a concept might not exist in the Far Realm, and they might simply be curious, or wanting to talk to us, or wanting to merge and mingle and commune except our reality might not allow for their will to take place as it would in their reality, and instead they end up with bloody hands and bloody pseudopods and we end up a soupy, half-digested mess on the floor.

Alignment might not exist in the Far Realm. From a game rules perspective anything can have alignment. Drop that notion entirely for a moment. Applying metagame alignment rules to something from the Far Realm might frankly be the same as seeking to determine a value for the height of a being that comes from a reality with different dimensional properties. Height might not exist for a 2d being, and would horrify and confound a being moving into a 3d world. Alignment might likewise have a similar disconnect between the reality of the Great Wheel and the Far Realms, and you can't rely on a blanket, monolithic application of game rules on such.
 

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paradox42 said:
For my part, I'll just mention that the PCs in my Epic game encountered an Uvuudaum Paladin in their travels, twice- and realized in the second encounter that that creature had encountered them, from its perspective, the other way around (that is, to it that encounter was the first one and the other encounter was subjectively later). I had great fun setting up that interaction, it's one of my favorite memories from the campaign.

Yoink!

That is awesome. Would you be so kind as to enlighten me on how you pulled this off? My players are about to enter a Cerebrotic Marrow (Dragon #330) and will be meeting a "guide" of sorts. I would love to do what you did to help give the proper feel of the place.

As for the OP - I too believe the Far Realms are not inherently evil (as the lower planes are). Rather, the things that are out there are so incompatible with in here that mixing them creates dangerous results. I think the evil comes from the misunderstanding that those who interact with it experience (either accidental or intentional).

As an example I can offer up my current adventure: The villains are a trio of Mind Flayers who wish to open up a Far Realm portal and retrieve their master; an Elder Brain who attempted its own portal to gain power and got pulled through and stuck there. To do so, they enlisted the aid of a university professor to help find the McGuffins required. The professor is glad to help because he believes that the current state of the world - in which strength and physical ability is generally superior to mental intelligence - is backwards and unfair. He'd rather see world of "brain over brawn" and he thinks that the opening a portal to the Far Realm can "fix" things.

In that given situation, there is plenty of Evil. The Elder Brain is evil, it wanted to increase its power so it could dominate and control more. The Mind Flayers are evil because they agree and want to help. The professor is evil too, he is misguided and more than a little crazy for sure, but wanting to upset the natural balance of things in the hopes of eliminating those "less intelligent" and ending up in charge certainly wins him a black hat.

But the Far Realm itself? Not evil. Heck, It, and anything native to it, probably doesn't even notice.

Anyway, just a thought (and a plug for my campaign.. how did that happen?)
 

Shemeska said:
What if it does what it does from a completely different understanding of how reality works? It might not comprehend that killing something in our multiverse is evil. Death as a concept might not exist in the Far Realm, and they might simply be curious, or wanting to talk to us, or wanting to merge and mingle and commune except our reality might not allow for their will to take place as it would in their reality, and instead they end up with bloody hands and bloody pseudopods and we end up a soupy, half-digested mess on the floor.

Alignment might not exist in the Far Realm. From a game rules perspective anything can have alignment. Drop that notion entirely for a moment. Applying metagame alignment rules to something from the Far Realm might frankly be the same as seeking to determine a value for the height of a being that comes from a reality with different dimensional properties. Height might not exist for a 2d being, and would horrify and confound a being moving into a 3d world. Alignment might likewise have a similar disconnect between the reality of the Great Wheel and the Far Realms, and you can't rely on a blanket, monolithic application of game rules on such.

Actually, I have no problems with the idea of adding a 10th alignment - Amoral. But, in the absence of that, it doesn't matter what the creature thinks it is, it only matters what it does. Rather, while intent does play some part, actions play the largest role in determining alignment. Far Realms beings are completely uncaring of the destruction they cause (apparently) and are thus judged evil.

An insane person who is sociopathic, is still evil in D&D world. It doesn't matter that his personal morality meter is broken. It only matters that he just spread the maid's head all over the cobblestones. It doesn't matter that the Far Realms being doesn't understand its actions (which we can't determine either way since their motives are by definition unknowable), all that matters is that when an intelligent Far Realms creature meets a non-FR creature, it ends badly. :)
 

Suggestion:
Treat the Far Realm not as "evil" but as corrosive. It's like an Anti-Reality, but not in a Bizzaro World way. Instead, the 'stuff' it is made of intrinsically and automatically eats away at Reality, and especially the foundations of alignment.

Alignment is based on two things - matter and soul. Law and Chaos are essentially expressions of matter: is the matter organized and unified or is it disorganized and riotous? A sentient creature just applies its bias toward Law or Chaos to its actions. Good and Evil, on the other hand, are purely expressions of soul: do you obey your inclination to the perfect, or do you rebel against the perfect for personal gain?

The Anti-Reality of the Far Realm eats away at both of these things. It stills and arrests chaotic processes and turns lawful processes into a mad explosion of disunity. It erodes the basis for rational decision-making in a way that evil does not... evil uses reason to reject perfection. The Far Realm causes all rational processes to disintegrate and become unintelligible; insane and thus beyond good and evil.

The Far Realm is a Meta-Entropy. It does not merely drain the energy from existence, leaving it perfectly Lawful/Chaotic (that's regular Entropy). Rather, the Far Realm erases existence. Once you contact it, however, you are no longer able to perceive what you are now missing.
 

The Far Realm isn't supposed to be evil. Just incomprehensible and alien, and thus it drives mortals mad if they come into prolonged contact with it.

Now Xoriat, the Eberron equivalent of the Far Realm, really is some kind of evil plane of madness with inhabitants that really want to turn Eberron into their own alien domain and convert all mortals into obscene monstrosities. Or so I understand (I'm no Eberron expert, I just read some of the novels because there ain't much good D&D fiction beyond Faerun and Krynn, neither of which I care to bother with much).
 

Piratecat said:
When the dam breaks, is a flood evil as it rushes down the narrow valley towards you?

Implacable. Uncaring. Destructive. Terrifying.
Statistic.


Hong "trust me, I work in insurance" Ooi
 

Taking some of the ideas in here a little further, I'm thinking of running Far Realms creatures as having no alignment and no alignment descriptor, as an abilitity (so they take no extra damage from any kind of alligned weapons, for instance, and can't be hedged out by protection from... spells), but that they also count as Good, Evil, Chaotic, and Lawful for bypassing damage reduction. This will clearly futz with their CR a bit (and I'm too half-asleep to offer any suggestions right now).

The longer a Far Realm creature spends in our reality, the more it starts to adhere to our moral system, slowly developing an alignment (which will ususally be CE, since they are alien to our sense of Law and destructive by nature), hence those stuck here (like Cthulu) being big bad guys.

~Dave~
 

On the issue of whether the Outer Planes and its denizens are evil:

Lots of people don't like mosquitoes. They use bug zappers to kill them in droves. Does that make them evil?

Now suppose that the gap in intelligence and capability between some outer plane-ites and humans is as big as the gap between humans and mosquitoes.

Or suppose that to their utterly alien perspective humans don't register as sentient beings.
 

I like the idea I saw about the Far Realmers having totally different standards from the rest of reality. Like the example of us having AC 72, and they have AC #%. We have a Fortitude saving throw of +17, they have a Fort save of +@).

They hurt us with their existence, and we hurt them with our existence. Except that when we try to quantify them into monster stats, they've already been hurt by being in our existence. So yes, if you were to fight them in the Far Realm, they would be alot more powerful.
 

Mistah J said:
Yoink!

That is awesome. Would you be so kind as to enlighten me on how you pulled this off? My players are about to enter a Cerebrotic Marrow (Dragon #330) and will be meeting a "guide" of sorts. I would love to do what you did to help give the proper feel of the place.
This is going to be sort of long, because I'd like to explain some of the background that led to the setup the way it happened in my game. Your own assumptions and decisions for yours may be diffierent from mine, so the same setup may not work as well (or at all) for you. Hopefully your eyes don't get tired reading it, but as Minister Varano says in Episode 6, Season 4 of Babylon 5, "The details are everything." I follow that maxim in most facets of my life, game setups included. Apologies in advance if all this extra detail makes the post too long.

To begin with, I actually had the character/NPC planned for months prior to the first encounter, as a result of my decision for how to fit Uvuudaums into my campaign- IMC they sort of represent "Archetypes" from which beings within conventional reality are "derived" in some inexplicable manner. Thus, an Uvuudaum is actually the ultimate, absolute and perfect representation of whatever it is, and other beings are merely facets of it (or reflections of its force off the form of another, in the case of multiclass characters).

This is a hard concept to wrap your brain around, but I got it after reading HPL's Through the Gates of the Silver Key which actually contains something very valuable for gamers interested in a Far Realm-type place: a description of the protagonist's trip beyond conventional reality. That one passage of that story has influenced years of my gaming, even though the concepts introduced in it are highly abstract and difficult or impossible to picture in a meaningful way. If you are in a position to read a copy of that story, I highly recommend doing so.

Back to the Uvuudaums, when I decided that they represent Archetypes in our reality, things began to fall into place. Notably, their Confusion Aura results from their being because their minds contain thoughts from every single derivative in existence- that is, the Uvuudaum Paladin contains within itself the thoughts of every single Paladin who ever has existed, exists now, or ever will or could exist, and it thinks them all simultaneously. That has to be hard for any normal creature to grasp- hence, the insanity effect whenever such a creature gets too close to the Source. It also gave me a mechanism for naming the creatures and coming up with character concepts- their names are fairly mundane by normal standards, and not what one would expect. The Uvuudaum Paladin's actual name is, in fact, "Paladin." That's all it really can be named, because it actually, physically embodies the concept and role of a Paladin in this scheme.

Now to the setup. This whole character came about because the party was being set up to take on the Uvuudaum named Sorcerer's Apprentice, which had stolen its master Sorcerer's staff (or Staff :lol: ) and gotten trapped in our reality during its attempts to escape and hide. The staff is a Major Artifact made in and belonging to the Far Realm, so I didn't want it hanging around in the game after being found by the PCs- so I needed something to come and take it away. Simultaneously, I wanted to impress upon the players the idea that if the Far Realm contains all possibilities, even unimaginable ones, then it must contain good ones as well as evil ones. The ideal solution was to bring in something of unassailable character- and the concept of Paladin was born. Since I half-expected my PCs to immediately attack it when it showed up to take the staff away, just based on it being an Uvuudaum, I needed to make stats for it as well as those for Sorcerer's Apprentice, and so I did. I made only two changes to its racial abilities: its DR changed from 10/Epic and Good to 10/Epic and Evil, and its Regeneration can be overcome by Evil/Unholy weapons instead of Good/Holy ones.

Later on in the campaign though, before the PCs actually reached the big fight with Sorcerer's Apprentice, they encountered a basic Uvuudaum straight out of the SRD/ELH for other reasons I won't go into. I decided that this basic being, with no class levels, must represent the lowest of the low to the Uvuudaums- its name, in other words, was Commoner. And Commoner was already imprisoned in a cell with several extremely powerful magical effects to keep it there when the PCs found it; it was able to talk to (and whine at) them but little else. I was half-anticipating that the PCs might make a deal with it for its freedom, since they were facing some extremely tough opposition at the time, but they surprised me- they made a deal with several Winterwights that happened to be in the area instead and got them to help. They left Commoner imprisoned.

Well, just for kicks, I decided that I'd tease them with Paladin before the battle with Sorcerer's Apprentice. So I had Commoner escape inexplicably- while, in fact, the PCs were watching a device that was monitoring the prison's effects and trying to repair it so as to make sure that the Uvuudaum could never get out. :) They used Discern Location to figure out where Commoner went, then spent a few rounds buffing and preparing and then followed it. When they arrived, they saw not what they had expected to see but instead a "shape of Horror like that of the prisoner, but fantastically muscular for its weird form and obviously healthy beyond compare" decked out in full plate armor and carrying a massive sword. Paladin was also described as being golden-skinned and emitting an aura of white-gold light in addition to the aura of weird, unearthly green that I have most Far Realm denizens emit IMC.

Paladin didn't introduce itself at that first encounter, but since the PCs didn't attack it right away as they might have (they wisely held back, since Paladin was then a lot more powerful than any of them and probably could have crushed the party in a fight), I decided to play with their heads some more. Since the Far Realm is outside time, I reasoned, why not do something involving a time-loop? Assume that because the PCs didn't attack Paladin here, that they wouldn't do it when they encountered it after taking down Sorcerer's Apprentice (if they managed that feat, of course). Logically, they'd refer back to this earlier encounter with Paladin at that time if conversation took place- and such conversation might lead to giving Paladin clues as to where and when Commoner was being held. Thus, the PCs in this hypothetical future gave Paladin the information it needed to find and rescue Commoner.

Therefore, Paladin said exactly one thing to them before it turned around and floated through the open Far Realm portal behind it: "It is good to see you again. Thank you for the information. The rescue is accomplished."

They puzzled over what that meant for weeks, and I laughed inside every time they mentioned it. But when the days finally came to battle Sorcerer's Apprentice and its minions (the actual battle took around 3 minutes of game time and 2 1/2 sessions to play out- but wow what a memorable fight!), the PCs used an artifact they'd acquired off of the Apprentice to open a Far Realm portal, intending to shove the Staff through it and rid the cosmos of its presence. The Staff had taken over the mind of the party Sorceress as soon as she picked it up, you see, and thus the players decided it was bad news (though the player of the Sorceress was slightly upset that they managed to beat her down and take the Staff away- his comment was "I could've been a really cool pseudonatural Blighter."). On the other side of said portal was Paladin, and it came through the open portal and took the Staff from them (they handed it over willingly when they saw the golden Uvuudaum, having decided before this that maybe that creature was benign). Conversation with Paladin during this encounter proved to the players that as far as Paladin was concerned, it was meeting them for the first time, so they roleplayed and completed the circle willingly by telling it exactly where and when to go to pick up Commoner.

Disruptive players who get a kick from deliberately spoiling DM plots no matter how cool the setup probably wouldn't have completed the circle willingly, but my players are good that way. They were happy to have the story complete the way it did, and thus did what they needed to do to make the earlier encounter make sense. :) We've actually had several cool plots arise as cooperative efforts that way, in my game.
 

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