A few comments from a playtester

[hong]

This is the kind of comment that really gets under our skin. It's not our job to make the damn game for Wizards. It's not a "lack of imagination" if we have to fix everything.

Contrary to popular belief, the use of the plural pronoun is not something that automatically confers royal status upon ourselves.

And for that matter, how the hell can someone that constantly decries "simulationists" talk smack about someone else not having an imagination? Either it's "just a game" and it doesn't matter, or it does matter. Make up your mind.

Of course imagination matters. As does material to stimulate that imagination. But if the imagination refuses to be stimulated, well, there's no help for that.

 

[Cadfan]

Homebrewing/houseruling has long been a tradition of minor tweaks and major addition. You take what you've got and add to it.

It's not taking it and then having to fix what's already inside.

What you see as "fix," I see as "ruin." This fact may have something to do with the reason that the game works the way it does.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Sorry, this is 4E. No dirt farmers here. The PCs are heroes.

Your lack of imagination in how to explain it in-game is something. Why does it have to be spontaneous? Could he not have spent the previous level learning how to pull it off?

You're framing the explanation to make your point. Your interpretation is the problem, not the rules.

Stop claiming everyone has a lack of imagination. It's insulting at best.

No, they didn't spend last level learning, because last level they learned to swing a sword better.

There's a difference between "heroes" and "crappy Mary Sue characters that somehow succeed at EVERYTHING whenever they want to." Guess what this one encourages? I can't imagine how boring the Black Company would've been if it was just one person casually walking around the countryside being amazing at everything.

And that's all he can cast, in this example. Got a situation that can't be solved with a fireball? Tough. A fly spell would be useful? Oh well, too bad.

The wizard's versatility is the advantage here. Having a single arcane power doesn't suddenly make the fighter equivalent to the wizard.

No, but he can cast fireball to the equivalent to the wizard, and at very little relative cost.

This big irony here is that most of the people defending the "No, it's totally cool that one character can do anything" are the same ones that religiously defend the "defender, striker, controller, leader, ALL MUST SUBMIT TO THESE GUIDELINES" idea.

 

[hong]

Stop claiming everyone has a lack of imagination. It's insulting at best.

No, they didn't spend last level learning, because last level they learned to swing a sword better.

Maybe they spent last level learning to do both. Do people always single-task in your world?

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Maybe they spent last level learning to do both. Do people always single-task in your world?

So he essentially spent last level becoming both a fighter AND learning all the arcane secrets of wizard several times his actual skill in magic at the same time? Is everyone in your world that fantastically talented? Is anyone? Ever?

 

[keterys]

Heck, my brain usually can't even do a single ta

 

[Fifth Element]

This big irony here is that most of the people defending the "No, it's totally cool that one character can do anything" are the same ones that religiously defend the "defender, striker, controller, leader, ALL MUST SUBMIT TO THESE GUIDELINES" idea.

Really? I don't recall saying that. Can you provide a link?

 

[Rechan]

While I do so love watching people argue in circles...

Homebrewing/houseruling has long been a tradition of minor tweaks and major addition. You take what you've got and add to it.

It's not taking it and then having to fix what's already inside.

No, you're wrong.

There are countless people who have intentionally tore out rules and changed them to better suit them. In fact, there's a type of person who loves to tear out parts of a system and re-work them to better suit their tastes.

Furthermore, there is an entire market in changing rules. Critical hit tables/decks. Unearthed Arcana exists solely because some rules people don't like. That's why Orcus is making 0-level classes and re-doing monsters to have more save-or-die because the game isn't lethal enough. That's fixing, not adding.

For god's sake: E6, Conan, Castles and Crusades, Hackmaster; they all grew out of people tearing up D&D and remaking it so it fit their style of play better! 3rd edition had many changes that people had made to their 2e games!

Have you not payed attention to posters saying "I can drop Warlocks, Wizards, Paladins and Clerics, give access to ritual magic, toss out magical weapons (and give the level-based bonuses) and I can finally have a low-magic world that works, and it reflects Conan! YAY!" Lizard himself has been talking about "No Casters". That's taking things out. Many people will be dumping Tieflings and Dragonborn. I'll be chucking Dwarves, Elves, and possibly Halflings. No adding there.

If you honestly think that "Houserules/homebrewing is about adding, not taking it out and fixing", go over to the House Rules forum and make that declaration, see what you get.

D&D is if anything a base with which people take and mutate. Not just the fluff, but the rules. That's how it was in 1e. That's how it will be, judging by how people talk on these forms.

The thing comes down to this: 4e D&D is gunna be this way. You either take it, play it the way it's in the core, take it and change it the way you want, or you don't play it. And you're not going to convince anyone here that anything should be any other way but your way because everyone has their own way of how things should be.

 

[Fifth Element]

So he essentially spent last level becoming both a fighter AND learning all the arcane secrets of wizard several times his actual skill in magic at the same time?

Yes, he spent the time learning that instead of whatever fightery thing he would have used the feat for otherwise. So less fighter learnin', and more wizard learnin'. Make sense?

 

[hong]

So he essentially spent last level becoming both a fighter AND learning all the arcane secrets of wizard several times his actual skill in magic at the same time?

Hello. Please read the OP. Thank you.

Is everyone in your world that fantastically talented? Is anyone? Ever?

Someone who reaches paragon tier is by definition fantastically talented. Your question is...?