A few comments from a playtester

[Fifth Element]

There's a difference between "heroes" and "crappy Mary Sue characters that somehow succeed at EVERYTHING whenever they want to."

We are honourable men. Hyperbole does not become us.

How is spending a feat in order to be able to cast a single spell equivalent to somehow succeeding at EVERYTHING whenever you want to?

If you want to argue, keep it in the ballpark at least.

 

[Mallus]

Player 1 has spent the entire game as class X because they really want to learn fireball.

Player 2 runs around and hits things with a sword.

Player 1 finally gets the pay off and learns fireball.

Player 2 decides he likes fire, and grabs the same power.

Player 1 gets very irritated about this and the game goes PvP

The DM laughs maliciously

Note that your example requires that the players be either unruly children or adult jackasses.

The idea that some dirt farmer who swings a sword pretty nicely can just spontaniously learn to throw fireballs as well as an equal level wizard who's been doing it all their life is just dumb.

The idea that you learn how to be a wizard through camping and the killing of rats, as opposed to many years of diligent study and/or the making of pacts with spiritual entities is fundamentally stupid too (which is to say that it's unsupported by the source literature), and yet that didn't stop three decades worth of low-level D&D wizards. Why the push to hold the new edition to a higher standard than the ones that preceded it?

It's just dumb

He who is pretending to be an elf shouldn't throw stones.

Seriously though, the real issue here seems to be whether the rules should require a player to stick to their initial character concepts. I see no reason for that. I don't mind PC's that grow and change in response to campaign events. Neither do I mind characters that change solely out of player whim. When I DM I try to challenge my player's characters through play, not challenge them to create the character they desire to play.

If Joe the former dirt farmer fighter suddenly wants a little magecraft, we'll retcon things and say he's been studying all along, or that magery in his blood, whatever.

 

[Mallus]

Homebrewing/houseruling has long been a tradition of minor tweaks and major addition. You take what you've got and add to it.

I started with 1st edition AD&D, and every gaming group I knew of back then took what they bought and proceeded to make it into an entirely different, customized game.

 

[Fifth Element]

He who is pretending to be an elf shouldn't throw stones.

Correct. You should leave that to those pretending to be halflings. They get a +1 bonus.

 

[keterys]

Correct. You should leave that to those pretending to be halflings. They get a +1 bonus.

3E stones maybe, but 4E elves win... at least for the initial throwing. They kinda cancel out once it's mutual throwing.

 

[Nightchilde-2]

So he essentially spent last level becoming both a fighter AND learning all the arcane secrets of wizard several times his actual skill in magic at the same time? Is everyone in your world that fantastically talented? Is anyone? Ever?

I don't see why not. After all, even adventurers are going to have downtime to pick up a book or two and learn a few things here and there, especially over several levels. I mean, look at all the downtime you have in 3e, what with having to rest for 8 hours every 15 or so minutes to refresh spell slots....

 

[LostSoul]

There's a difference between "heroes" and "crappy Mary Sue characters that somehow succeed at EVERYTHING whenever they want to." Guess what this one encourages? I can't imagine how boring the Black Company would've been if it was just one person casually walking around the countryside being amazing at everything.

I'm having trouble understanding your argument.

Is it that multiclassing unbalances PCs in relation to each other? If so, does it matter that all PCs may multiclass? The Wizard can take the Fighter's best power, too.

If the Wizard doesn't get as much from multiclassing as the Fighter, doesn't that mean the Wizard is unbalanced to start off with? Is the issue then that the Wizard is unbalanced?

*

Or is it that the game isn't challenging enough? The number of TPKs from Keep on the Shadowfell should be evidence enough that it is challenging.

 

[Cadfan]

Oh no! A fighter can spend two feats over the course of 3 level advancements in order to lose one of his powers and gain a wizard's power, and then can cast that wizard power just as well as a wizard could, if that wizard had a fighter's intelligence score, and was wielding a big ax instead of a magical staff!

Lets bring this back to reality, please.

 

[Kaodi]

I cannot stress enough how horribly depressed and disappointed I am that for the last six pages one group of people has been arguing that multiclass characters have to suck in order to be any good and that somehow multiclassing only represents people magically learning techniques which would, of course, NEVER happen in a a fantasy situation. And of course, they would NEVER have been practicing a few special tricks behind everyones back.

Can we please just have an adult debate on whether it is mechanically balanced or not and drop this fluff debate? I am sure you are all aware of Orcus' statement to the effect that the PHB was 99% Crunch. So let's debate something in the 99% that matters instead of the 1% that doesn't.

 

[Simplicity]

I cannot stress enough how horribly depressed and disappointed I am that for the last six pages one group of people has been arguing that multiclass characters have to suck in order to be any good and that somehow multiclassing only represents people magically learning techniques which would, of course, NEVER happen in a a fantasy situation. And of course, they would NEVER have been practicing a few special tricks behind everyones back.


Can we please just have an adult debate on whether it is mechanically balanced or not and drop this fluff debate? I am sure you are all aware of Orcus' statement to the effect that the PHB was 99% Crunch. So let's debate something in the 99% that matters instead of the 1% that doesn't.

Seriously. I've been reading this thread off and on for a while.
By off and on, I mean I keep checking the last page... and saying "Nope, they're still talking about fighters multiclassing to wizards."

This isn't an argument that can be won. Agree to disagree already.