A few comments from a playtester

[hong]

They mainly interfere with my sense of realism and consistency (and, apparently, those of some other posters, as well). Now, I doubt that most DMs let the PCs multiclass "instantly" into Barbarian, Wizard, Cleric or Paladin, but I may be wrong

I believe you are.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

... no, I think it implies lack of imagination.

This is the kind of comment that really gets under our skin. It's not our job to make the damn game for Wizards. It's not a "lack of imagination" if we have to fix everything.

And for that matter, how the hell can someone that constantly decries "simulationists" talk smack about someone else not having an imagination? Either it's "just a game" and it doesn't matter, or it does matter. Make up your mind.

 

[Mallus]

Suddenly being able to do an equal level ability just cheapens it.

Or renders it playable.

And the use of 'cheapens' is odd when you consider that we're talking about the imaginary powers the elves we're pretending to be have...

 

[Mallus]

It's not our job to make the damn game for Wizards.

This is also an odd statement given the traditional DIY spirit that informed every edition of D&D. It also doesn't jive with the longstanding tradition of homebrewing/houseruling.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Or renders it playable.

And the use of 'cheapens' is odd when you consider that we're talking about the imaginary powers the elves we're pretending to be have...

It's really not that odd.

Player 1 has spent the entire game as class X because they really want to learn fireball.

Player 2 runs around and hits things with a sword.

Player 1 finally gets the pay off and learns fireball.

Player 2 decides he likes fire, and grabs the same power.

Player 1 gets very irritated about this and the game goes PvP

The DM laughs maliciously

You can easily make a Gish build. *Easily*. It's obviously been done many times before. The idea that some dirt farmer who swings a sword pretty nicely can just spontaniously learn to throw fireballs as well as an equal level wizard who's been doing it all their life is just dumb. It's not a "SIMULATIONIST!" "GAMIST!" thing, either. It's just dumb

 

[ProfessorCirno]

This is also an odd statement given the traditional DIY spirit that informed every edition of D&D. It also doesn't jive with the longstanding tradition of homebrewing/houseruling.

Homebrewing/houseruling has long been a tradition of minor tweaks and major addition. You take what you've got and add to it.

It's not taking it and then having to fix what's already inside.

 

[Fifth Element]

(Oh, you've spent how many levels studying to be a wizard and you can now fireball? SHAZAAMO, now I can too!)

Of course, the many levels spent studying to be a wizard gives you all the other spells the wizard has available. If a character can suddenly cast one particular spell, big deal. The wizard has more than that single spell.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Of course, the many levels spent studying to be a wizard gives you all the other spells the wizard has available. If a character can suddenly cast one particular spell, big deal. The wizard has more than that single spell.

But all the other spells are much weaker then the one he just learned. The fighter isn't learning the Wash My Clothing spell. Yeah, the wizard has other spells, but they all suck in comparison.

Again, the fighter is just grabbing the same HIGH LEVEL spell as the wizard.

Plus, the fighter can still swing his sword around, while the wizard can shoot I Can't Believe It's Not A Crossbow Missile.

 

[Fifth Element]

You can easily make a Gish build. *Easily*. It's obviously been done many times before. The idea that some dirt farmer who swings a sword pretty nicely can just spontaniously learn to throw fireballs as well as an equal level wizard who's been doing it all their life is just dumb.

Sorry, this is 4E. No dirt farmers here. The PCs are heroes.

Your lack of imagination in how to explain it in-game is something. Why does it have to be spontaneous? Could he not have spent the previous level learning how to pull it off?

You're framing the explanation to make your point. Your interpretation is the problem, not the rules.

 

[Fifth Element]

But all the other spells are much weaker then the one he just learned. The fighter isn't learning the Wash My Clothing spell. Yeah, the wizard has other spells, but they all suck in comparison.

And that's all he can cast, in this example. Got a situation that can't be solved with a fireball? Tough. A fly spell would be useful? Oh well, too bad.

The wizard's versatility is the advantage here. Having a single arcane power doesn't suddenly make the fighter equivalent to the wizard.