A few comments from a playtester

[small pumpkin man]

This thread has raised an interested question about retraining:

Does it occur before or after you select feats/powers for that level? In other words, can you use it to get the requisites for abilities you also buy that level, or do the retrained feats etc only count for abilities bought at later levels?

a 14th-level character can’t have more than seven paragon feats (those gained at 11th, 12th, and 14th level, as well as up to four retrained feats).

Which means you can use an ability you just gained this level as a prereque for retrained abilities.

-Edit. Since you can retrain in Paragon feats at level 11, at the same level you gain Paragon tier.

 

[Hussar]

I thought only Hong used that kind of replies? ;P

Seriously, are you telling me that thinking and even a minimal degree of realism is bad in 4E? It's all about combat and cool-awesome-whatnot powers, and not about any logic in the story?

You have two choices:

Choice 1. Create mechanics that are heavy into verisimilitude and simulation, but, are boring as hell and never get used.

or

Choice 2. Create mechanics that, while they might be very gamey, are fun and will see the light of day frequently.​

Every previous edition, largely, chose option 1. 4e is going with option 2. Why be constantly surprised by this after months of the devs stating this as a goal?

 

[Fiendish Dire Weasel]

Realism is for GURPS.

 

[drjones]

Seriously, are you telling me that thinking and even a minimal degree of realism is bad in 4E? It's all about combat and cool-awesome-whatnot powers, and not about any logic in the story?

As opposed to the logic of 'Earlier today I could cast Melfs Acid Arrow but then I killed a hobgoblin and now I can cast Fireballs!!'. The game does not make sense.

 

[Mostlyjoe]

Realism is for GURPS.

Until you see their magic system. When you can sustain Body of Air, Invisibility, and Shape Air with high stats...well, let me tell you, logic just goes right out the window. So lets not be system centric and focus on the original topic at hand.

 

[Dausuul]

I think it's ludicrous to be upset about the ability to gain a powerful wizard ability comparatively easily, yet be completely okay with the D&D level system.

I mean, seriously, folks, think about it--you have a guy starting out as Joe Regular Militia Fighter, and going to Joseph the Epic-Level Godslayer over the course of a few months, maybe a year of game-world time. And you're quibbling over Joe picking up a wizard spell along the way? Come on, there's no verisimilitude anywhere in the D&D advancement system and never has been.

Personally, I'd actually like a more believable advancement system in D&D; I'm a fan of breadth-based (add new options) rather than depth-based (increase the power of your most powerful options) advancement. Verisimilitude aside, I think breadth-based advancement is much easier on DMs and makes for a better campaign, because you don't have to be constantly ramping up the power level of the opposition to keep pace with the PCs. And it's more fun from a player perspective, because you're gaining qualitatively (fun new abilities) rather than quantitatively (bigger numbers). If 4E weren't coming out, I'd probably give E6 a try.

But as long as we're handwaving the wackiness of the level system, it doesn't make sense to get all het up about multiclassing.

 

[Noinarap]

Thanks for the link, Jack99. It really made me appreciate the quality of posters here.

As a very frequent gleemax poster, I very frequently question my decision to be a gleemax poster. If I clicked "Report Post" any more often, the mods would accuse me of harassing them.

 

[Samurai]

Personally, I think multiclassing seems too weak as written. Normally a Feat will give you some additional ability, or improve an existing one. If all the powers are theoretically equal, doesn't merely exchanging 1 power for another at the price of a feat mean you gain nothing?

Right now, I think I'll probably be houseruling it to say that you still choose a regular power of that level, as well as the multiclass power gained by the feat. Both of them use the same slot, though... so if you have a Fighter Daily and a Wizard Daily, you can choose which one to use, though you can still only use 1 Daily power... whichever you end up using, that was your Daily power. Same with linked Encounter powers.

I'm not sure yet what to do about At Will powers. I might just say that you can use 1 per round, either is ok, switch freely between them. Or once you use a linked At Will in an encounter, that is your At Will for the rest of the encounter. Or maybe allow 1 round of concentration to switch between them. Not sure yet what to do, may have to wait and see 4e.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Personally, I think multiclassing seems too weak as written. Normally a Feat will give you some additional ability, or improve an existing one. If all the powers are theoretically equal, doesn't merely exchanging 1 power for another at the price of a feat mean you gain nothing?

The powers are balanced for the class that is supposed to have them.
Giving it to another class can give entirely new options.

Just as an example - a Wizard might prefer the Rogues Tumble power over his own Expeditious Retreat power. He does want to escape safely, not just fast!
A Fighter that picks up Sleep might be in a lot of better position to use it then a Wizard, since he's at the front line and has no allies between him and his targets.

A Warlock might have cursed a few of his foes and would love to cast a fireball-like spell to deal extra damage to all cursed targets.

 

[charlesatan]

2) I'm perceiving this from a realistical point of view. In any previous edition multiclassing or dual-classing meant that you began with 1st level powers -- now you can start by lobbing Fireballs and Prismatic Sprays right from the start just by burning a Feat? Uh... no more apprenticeship period or "learning curve" at all? Doesn't seem very logical to me.

You're not just burning up a feat. You're trading one special power for another. Remember that uber-cool technique I was going to learn from my master? Well, I studied a different technique instead from this Wizard...

And if it bothers you so much, your character can always learn a lower-level power.

Also, the apprenticeship "learning curve" was what made gish combos (i.e. Fighter 10/Wizard 10) inferior in 3.x without resorting to prestige classes like Eldritch Knight/Spellsword and/or feats like Practiced Spellcaster.