A few comments from a playtester

[Cadfan]

Having a character multiclass into wizard at level 10 and gain only abilities that are appropriate for a first level wizard fighting 1st level enemies was, while realistic, really lame.

Now that character gets abilities that are appropriate for a 10th level wizard.

This is less realistic. It also doesn't suck.

 

[Fifth Element]

Having a character multiclass into wizard at level 10 and gain only abilities that are appropriate for a first level wizard fighting 1st level enemies was, while realistic, really lame.

Yes, exactly. In my campaign one of my players is Ranger 7, and now really really wants to multiclass into druid (it's certainly appropriate from the character's point of view). In order to make the choice not completely suck, since the other characters are single-classed or into prestige classes, I wound up giving him a magic item that increased his druid caster level and gave him a couple of druidish spell-like abilities. Otherwise his druid abilities would be completely irrelevant for many levels.

 

[Duelpersonality]

Except that we don't know if there's a feat in the PHB that does.

In fact, the question was "Could there be a feat that does?" and the response was "Absolutely".

Sorry, I wasn't exactly clear in my first post. I meant that, as the preview articles had it, stormwarden would require a character to start as ranger. I wansn't commenting on Massawyrm's responses.

 

[Rechan]

Sorry, I wasn't exactly clear in my first post. I meant that, as the preview articles had it, stormwarden would require a character to start as ranger. I wansn't commenting on Massawyrm's responses.

Emphasis mine.

Making assumptions like "You have to start as a ranger to get into Stormwarden" based on a lack of information isn't helpful. We have seen nothing that shows you cannot pick up a two-weapon fighting style via feat.

I have not seen Cone of Cold previewed, but I saying "Cone of Cold isn't in the PHB" is erroneous based on the lack of a Cone of Cold preview.

And while you may not be saying the above, I firmly point it out to someone who may mistakenly assume that you are, and thus misinformation is spread.

Based on the previews, you cannot get Stormwarden. That's all.

 

[Duelpersonality]

Emphasis mine.

Making assumptions like "You have to start as a ranger to get into Stormwarden" based on a lack of information isn't helpful. We have seen nothing that shows you cannot pick up a two-weapon fighting style via feat.

I have not seen Cone of Cold previewed, but I saying "Cone of Cold isn't in the PHB" is erroneous based on the lack of a Cone of Cold preview.

And while you may not be saying the above, I firmly point it out to someone who may mistakenly assume that you are, and thus misinformation is spread.

Based on the previews, you cannot get Stormwarden. That's all.

I think I probably misunderstood your first response to MindWanderer. I am not saying that a fighter with a ranger multi-class feat cannot take the stormwarden PP. I was trying to point out that, from the preview articles, it did not look like that was possible and MindWanderer seemed to be saying that a fighter with a multi-class feat could not be a stormwarden. You had pointed out (because of the way MindWanderer had phrased his original statement, saying fighter/stormwarden) that a fighter would have had to take a multi-class feat to qualify for stormwarden anyway. My original point was that it did not look like it was going to be possible to do that, but Massawyrm seemed to imply that such a combo would be possible due to differing multi-class feats.

That seems awfully wordy to say that I think we agree, we're just not understanding each other.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Hmmm... so you could just multiclass your fighter into wizard and say:

"Look guys! I just began as an apprentice, but I can already hurl Delayed Blast Fireballs and Prismatic Sprays! Isn't it *awesome* how simple magic is to learn... uh, what? 1st-level powers? No, no, no.... I can take 7th level powers right from the book, so I just skipped learning that 'weakling' stuff!"

While it's correct that you'd be taking a 7th level wizard encounter power if you took the appropriate feat, you'd still have taken two previous multiclassing feat previously to this so there would have been a progressive increase in power. It wouldn't be nothing then suddenly fireball. There would have been previous weaker powers.

---

Considering retraining : We'll know soon enough but I expect that you can't swap a feat that is a pre-requisite for another feat without also losing that feat.

Just a guess.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Do we even know if all feats can be retrained, or acquired through retraining?

I could see rules where certain feats can only be gained through taking them as a feat and not through retraining. So minor feats can be gained through retraining/can be retrained. Major feats have to be gained through feats and cannot be retrained.

I hope not. If we're going for that, then we may as well go for the old "retraining happens with dm fiat" and be done with it.

I'd much rather see DMs having to come up with a good reason to not allow it than vice-versa.

If you're in a really immersive game, then, as precociousapprentice showed:

If my DM allowed to do that without any sort of "apprenticeship period" in the story, I'd seriously consider walking out of the campaign

players will police that sort of stuff.

Mind you, I think that "if my DM allowed me to do something that I thought was silly, I'd walk out" is a bit extreme, given the alternative of simply not doing it.

 

[Mort_Q]

Having a character multiclass into wizard at level 10 and gain only abilities that are appropriate for a first level wizard fighting 1st level enemies was, while realistic, really lame.

Now that character gets abilities that are appropriate for a 10th level wizard.

This is less realistic. It also doesn't suck.

Realism is subjective. It all depends on how you imagine magic works.

A real wizard understands the nature of magic. She can develop her own spells. She can take spell book and not just learn new spells, but reconstruct them in new and interesting ways. She can call spells to mind quickly and effectively.

With enough patience, anyone can spend the time to learn a spell. They don't have to understand how it works, they just need to know what to do. It does, however, take an incredible amount of practice.

BTW, don't multiclassers get daily powers as encounter powers, and encounter powers as daily powers, or some such?

 

[Kwalish Kid]

Thanks for the link, Jack99. It really made me appreciate the quality of posters here.

 

[Kaodi]

I think what I would do for class retraining is say that you have to have the multiclass feat for the class you want to enter, and if you are high enough to have any of the power substitution multiclass feats then you have to have them as well (but just one of each you qualify for). Also, you cannot have any other feats that would be invalidated by your new class. If you satisfy those requirements, you can class retrain, and all of your multiclass feats just switch to being for your new class to being for your old class. Only at level up, however, like other substitutions. If you have a lot to change, it could take a number of levels before you can do it. After changing classes, you can retrain your feats at subsequent levels in any way that is legal, or you could even retrain back to your old class if it is not working out for you.