A few comments from a playtester

[Jack99]

He's not a wizard at that point. He's a dabbler. You can't just look at one part of the character and compare them to a single class wizard of 10th lvl. He's a fighter who has learned some minor incantations to aid him in combat or through some other means.

Useful utility spells:
Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Read Magic, Dancing Lights, Light, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Open/Close, Arcane Mark, Prestidigitation, Alarm, Shield, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Identify, True Strike, Charm Person (npc's in town for information or something), Disguise Self, Magic Aura, Silent Image, Ventriloquism, Animate Rope, Erase, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Jump.

All those are useful spells in various situations that any class could make use of really.

On these boards it is considered rude to use which incidently is why the emote doesn't exist.

But please explain this to me. You state that a fig9/wiz1 is not really a wizard, more of a dabbler. Given that, how can you disagree with the statement that the same fig9/wiz is a piss poor wizard and a crappy fighter?

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Personally, I think multiclassing seems too weak as written. Normally a Feat will give you some additional ability, or improve an existing one. If all the powers are theoretically equal, doesn't merely exchanging 1 power for another at the price of a feat mean you gain nothing?

You gain options unavailable to your class which translate to powers.

You have to balance the acquisition of a mutli-class power with the knowledge that the players is going to maximize synergy with his current class.

Sure, if a fighter takes sly flourish, he hasn't gained enough to justify the cost of a feat. Especially if the sum of his cha and dex bonus are less than his str!

But you have to assume that the player will choose something that complement his abilities and balance accordingly. A rogue learning powers that give him sneak attack opportunity, for example. Or a defender learning cleric power that can heal him. Or a wizard learning a rogue power to get out of a tight spot.

And finally, there is the case of a PC learning a bit of powers from a class not reprented in the party so that he can become a bit of a MVP. If there are no warlord in the team, a fighter multiclassing and picking up a few warlord abilities is going to shine often indeed.

 

[Aria Silverhands]

On these boards it is considered rude to use which incidently is why the emote doesn't exist.

It's a smiley, get over yourself. The use of it is to succinctly demonstrate the ridiculousness of your statement. They say a picture is worth a thousand words. I figure a smiley has to be worth at least a hundred.

But please explain this to me. You state that a fig9/wiz1 is not really a wizard, more of a dabbler. Given that, how can you disagree with the statement that the same fig9/wiz is a piss poor wizard and a crappy fighter?

I disagree because the class itself fine. A level 1 wizard isn't "piss poor". It would be the player that would be "piss poor" for choosing spells that rely on caster level instead of being of general use regardless of caster level. If they want a fighter/mage type character, they should have played the Duskblade instead of dabbling in arcane arts as a fighter. The difference between a lvl 10 fighter and a lvl 9 fighter is so inconsequential it's not really worth mentioning.

 

[Rechan]

But please explain this to me. You state that a fig9/wiz1 is not really a wizard, more of a dabbler. Given that, how can you disagree with the statement that the same fig9/wiz is a piss poor wizard and a crappy fighter?

You can't tell the difference between a level 10 character just getting access to 1st level spells, and a level 10 fighter character getting access to a level 10 spell?

To put it into proper perspective. It'd be like in 3e if that level 10 fighter traded a feat to be able to cast Hold Monster, an equivalent-level spell.

I'd say a Fighter9 who can cast a Hold Monster beats the pants off a Fighter9 who can cast burning hands as a 1st level wizard.

 

[rhm001]

Given that, how can you disagree with the statement that the same fig9/wiz is a piss poor wizard and a crappy fighter?

I apologize for butting in to this debate, since I'm not the party you're posing that question to, but I don't think the statement is fair. Is a fighter 9/wizard 1 a "piss poor" wizard when compared to a wizard 10? I would say "Yes." But would they be a "crappy" fighter? No. That's ridiculous.

Compared to a fighter 10, they would have one less fighter feat, one less point of to hit bonus and one less point of fort save bonus, but they would get a +2 to will saves, the ability to use wizard/sorcerer magic items, the ability to make scrolls, and access to a couple spells that might be helpful. I don't think anyone's one pointed to Enlarge Person; even if the fighter had a magic item giving him a greater strength bonus than the +2, it could still be useful to become large and give yourself reach for 1 or more (depending on feats) rounds. The lost fighter feat might have been something decent---part of a chain, for example---but the character would be no more "crappy" than a fighter 10 who had selected other feats.

 

[Mort_Q]

I'd say a Fighter9 who can cast a Hold Monster beats the pants off a Fighter9 who can cast burning hands as a 1st level wizard.

True.

The real question is, does a Fighter9 who can cast Hold Monster beat the pants off of a Fighter10 that has an additional level appropriate martial power?

Depends on what they're up against.

 

[Dausuul]

You can't tell the difference between a level 10 character just getting access to 1st level spells, and a level 10 fighter character getting access to a level 10 spell?

Well, considering that it only takes a month or two to go from being a 1st-level wizard to a 10th-level wizard, I don't see what the problem is. The fighter has spent the last few weeks studying that particular spell.

 

[Fifth Element]

I don't feel like going through all those spells, but I bet a number of them aren't subjected to the ASF chance anyway, since some won't have somatic spell components.

There are very few spells that lack somatic components. For instance, of the 28 spells you listed, I count exactly 4 that lack S components: light, true strike, ventriloquism and feather fall. But hey, you could just invest a feat in Still Spell and use your 1st-level slots for cantrips, right? That would be a dandy dabbler.

 

[Fifth Element]

I apologize for butting in to this debate, since I'm not the party you're posing that question to, but I don't think the statement is fair. Is a fighter 9/wizard 1 a "piss poor" wizard when compared to a wizard 10? I would say "Yes." But would they be a "crappy" fighter? No. That's ridiculous.

I think "crappy" is an overstatement, but remember that in order to be able to use his wizard spells, that fighter is going to have to give up more than a single class level in fighter. He has ASF to worry about, so he either forgoes armour, or needs to invest feats and expensive equipment just so he can use his wizard spells (of limited utility at that character level) without restriction.

So it's not just what he gives up from that single fighter level, it's more of an investment than that.

 

[Dinkeldog]

It's a smiley, get over yourself. The use of it is to succinctly demonstrate the ridiculousness of your statement. They say a picture is worth a thousand words. I figure a smiley has to be worth at least a hundred.

No, really. We don't use "" here because it dismisses other board members. We also don't tell other people to "get over" themselves.

Imagine you're at a dinner party hosted by a friend of yours. Do you go to another of their guests--another friend of theirs--and tell them that their opinions are ridiculous? This board is essentially the same as that dinner party. We are all Morrus' guests, and it is imperative that we don't pick fights at the dinner party. We are allowed to discuss different opinions held, but opinions are what we hold. If we repeatedly show that we cannot hold discussions with the host's other guests, then we are likely to be asked to leave and not be invited to the next dinner party.

Please feel free to continue reading in the thread, Aria, but don't post in here again. If you have further questions, please feel free to e-mail me using the contact information in the Meta forum.

Thanks, Dinkeldog