A Fighters skill points....

[FrankTrollman]

How many prestige classes give bonus feats at first level?

All of them.

Some of them literally give "one bonus feat" such as the Guardian Paramount or something, some of them give you a specific feat such as "Great Cleave (and a bonus to tumble) for the Master Samurai, "Weapon Specialization" (and Mettle) for the Templar or "Improved Feint" for the Gladiator. And some just give you a special ability that is as good or better than a feat, such as "Defensive Blow +2" (and a bonus against Fear) for the Knight Protector.

The point is that there are literally thousands of these choices. Your choices are so vast when levelling that taking a "bonus feat" of anything off the Fighter list is actually more restrictive than taking one of the prestige class abilities designed for a warrior character. Whether you want to expand your melee, archery, grappling, tripping, or whatever else - taking classes other than Fighter levels has got you covered.

Why take Weapon Specialization by taking two more levels of Fighter when you could get it and the really nice "mettle" ability with only one level of Templar? Your other level could be Ranger and you'd be way ahead on skill points and get some other minor ability as well.

And so on.

I can do this for rogue and actually create a character with sneak attack the puts a 20th level rogues to shame.

No, you can't.

Everytime you take a level of a class that gives you Sneak Attack, you start your BAB over again (not counting people like the OotBI who have a limited Sneak Attack and a Fighter's BAB). Even though there are in fact hundreds of published classes which give a Sneak Attack at level 1, thereby allowing you to take only levels that give you sneak attack from level 6 through 20 - you wouldn't by any good if you did that.

See, while you'd get +1d6 sneak attack every level, you'd also get +0 BAB every level. So at 20th level, you'd have +18d6 sneak attack, but only a BAB of +3. You could TWF or something, and hand out as many as 36d6 of sneak attack every round.

The straight Rogue, OTOH, has only 10d6 Sneak Attack, but a BAB of +15/+10/+5. With just TWF, he attacks four times a round with all better attack bonuses for a total of 40d6 of sneak attack every round.

Rogue levels don't stack the way Fighter levels do. A Rogue class needs to jstify each set of four levels (the time it takes to finish out the BAB progression and keep it from falling behind). A Fighting class needs to justify every level (because that's how many levels it takes to finish out the BAB progression and keep from falling behind).

I'm sitting here looking at level five of Fighter. It gives no save bonuses, it gives the worst skills in the entire game, and it gives no special abilities at all. How can you say that that level justifies itself against anything?

That happens to the Fighter nine times. That class has nine levels that can't be justified in actually taking.

In order to be balanced it would need to have an ability every level. It would also need to not be in all ways inferior to other sampled classes that give an ability (or more) every level. That means that every level it would need to provide a minor bonus in addition to the bonus feat (similar to a Master Sanurai's Tumble Bonus or a Knight Protector's Shining Beacon) or have better skills and skill points.

That's the minimum just to make the class no longer objectively inferior to not taking the class in the first place.

-Frank

 

[Crothian]

Okay, I see what you are saying. So, the fact that fighters can pick specific feats and prestige classes give specific abilities is meaninless. The fighter gets a chance to take those high level feats that the other character will never qualify for. And you are still trying to balance the fighter to prestige classes that are more powerful then a core class. So, while a character could get a bunch of abilities, they lack the versatility of the fighter.

 

[FrankTrollman]

What versatility?

You can select a feat, from a list of thousands, every other level.

Or you can select a class feature, from an overlapping list of thousands every single level.

Where's the versatility?

Is it the part where you get less skill points and a more restrictive skill list, or the part where you get to pick your abilities less often?

Having less written on your class doesn't make you more versatile, it gives you less stuff.

-Frank

 

[Crothian]

One has to have the qualifications for the prestige classes, so that list of 1000 is really maybe 2. And the lists are not completely overlapping. Feats and class abilities have a little over lap but not much.

Also, since one has to qualify for the prestige classes, a lot of your options are going to be severely limited because you really have to plan ahead to get all the ducks in a row. Where the fighter just takes the very best feats.

Also, a host of first level abilites are really weak. One is not going to get whirlwind attack by taking a single class level. And its doubtful that the reaguliar character feats will get there because they will all be spent trying to qualify for the prestige classes.

A fighter can have his feats all be toward the same goal. Where taking a bunch of classes spreads out the focus. Sure, you might have the equivilant of 20 feats, but if they are all like toughness does it really matter?

I still think that in theory your idea is sound. But in practice it doesn't work out that way.

 

[FrankTrollman]

And the lists are not overlapping. Feats and class abilities have a little over lap but not many.

Until you stop contraditing yourself, I cannot possibly argue with you.

Either the lists are overlapping, or they are not overlapping, exclusive or. If they overlap a little bit, they overlap.

Since all of the class abilities that aren't "so good you can't take them as feats" are in fact, feats - I can't see how you could possibly cliam that they don't overlap.

-Frank

 

[Crothian]

A simple request for clarification was all that was needed. As it is a minor point, no need to hit the brakes over it especially when it doesn't effect the other points.

But I really would like to see a sample 20th level character with 20 different classes.

Edit: And I started a general thread about the 20th level character with 20 classes. I thought it would be interesting to see what others thought:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1124603

 

[Deset Gled]

You can select a feat, from a list of thousands, every other level.

Or you can select a class feature, from an overlapping list of thousands every single level.

Could you perhaps give a sample character (say level 15 or so, since you say that the fighter is weaker at higher levels) to give us an idea of the build type you're talking about?

Edit: Crothian has a much faster posting trigger than I.

 

[The_DarkAngel]

Franktrollman,

In your opinion, what would a balanced Fighter class aka a "complete fighter class" look like to you in-regaurds to class ablilites?

Secondly, Pendragon. Just because you are lacking any good arguement doesnt give you the right to call me stupid because you cant think of anything other than "buy magical items" as your solution to balancing classes. Grow-up and stop being a smuck.

DA

 

[FrankTrollman]

OK...

Let's take a Dragoon (a warrior type mounted/archer/meleeist) out to 16th level:

Human:
1 Ranger 1: (Mounted Combat, Educated, Track) {Favored Enemy, Wild Empathy, Animal Fondling)
2 Fighter 1: (Power Attack)
3 Paladin 1: (Cleave) {Detect Evil, Smite Evil}
4 Paladin 2: {Divine Grace, Lay on Hands}
5 Fighter 2: (Great Cleave)
6 Ranger 2: (Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot)
7 Knight Protector 1: {Defensive Blow +2, Shining Beacon}
8 Knight Protector 2: (Iron Will) {Best Effort +2}
9 Knight of the Middle Circle1: (Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow, Blind Fighting) {combat sense +2, one 1st level spell}
10 Ranger 3: (Endurance)
11 Templar 1: (Weapon Specialization: Composite Longbow) {Mettle, one 1st level spell}
12 Order of the Bow Initiate 1: (Precise Shot) {Ranged Sneak Attack 1d6}
13 Order of the Bow Initiate 2: (Close Combat Shot)
14 Divine Champion 1: {Lay on Hands}
15 Divine Champion 2: (Far Shot, spirited charge)
16 Deepwood Sniper 1: (Improved Critical: all ranged weapons) {range increment increae +10 ft.}

A 16th level human fighter attempting to be a Dragoon would have a BAB of +16, Saves of +10/+3/+3, a base of 38 skill points, and 16 feats.

This Dragoon has a BAB of +16, Saves of +14/+11/+13, a base of 66 skill points, and 16 literal feats (of which some are Epic feats and some are crap). But he also gets an additional Charisma bonus to saves, a smite attack, +2 to-hit and damage in melee, heal three times his charisma bonus plus two damage per day, +2 to-hit and AC against one chosen foe, a d6 of sneak attack, the ability to detect Evil at will, the ability to shoot a bow farther than a normal character, the ability to cast a couple of crappy 1st level spells (and use wands of cure light wounds), a Favored Enemy bonus, a +2 bonus on any skill check once per day, and a sneak attack die usable with ranged weapons.

So I ask you, how is all of that not worth more than the zero feats you are expending?

----

Alternately, let's just hit things:

Chaotic Neatral Orc
1 Ranger 1: (Track, Power Attack) {Favored Enemy, Wild Empathy}
2 Barbarian 1: (Fast Movement) {Rage 1/day}
3 Barbarian 2: (Cleave, Uncanny Dodge)
4 Ranger 2: (Two Weapon Fighting)
5 Fighter 1: (Great Cleave)
6 Tribal Protector 1: (Exotic Weapon: Spike Chain, Headlong Rush) {Tribal Enemy, Homeland}
7 Tribal Protector 2: {Wild Fighting}
8 Fighter 2: (Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain)
9 Ranger 3: (Endurance, Expertise)
10 Divine Champion 1: (Lay on Hands)
11 Templar 1: (Weapon Specialization) {Mettle}
12 Divine Champion 2: (Improved Trip, Knockdown) {Sacred defense +1}
13 Templar 2: {Smite 1/day}
14 Templar 3: (Greater Resiliency)
15 Templar 4: (Combat reflexes, Expert tactician)
16 Planar Champion 1: {Favored Plane}

So now you just hit stuff with a chain. Unlike an Orc Fighter, who would have 15 feats, saves of +10/+3/+3 and 38 skill points - you have 19 feats, saves of +21/+12/+5, and 68 skill points. Plus you get a huge pile of special abilities - including the ability to flurry attack and have a smite attack.

---

So yes, you get more feats, more abilities, more skill points, and more save bonuses by taking a mixed bunch of levels than by taking more levels of Fighter.

-Frank

 

[Crothian]

Which proves prestige classes are better then core classes. But you changed from one level per class to a few levels per class.

You can do this and build a better cleric, and better, wizard, and a better sorcerer as well. Rogue you might be able to as there are more then a few classes that give +1 BAB and sneak attack damage at level one.

So, yes you can min max a better fightrer with extreme multi classing into prestige classes.