A Fighters skill points....

[CalrinAlshaw]

You can't become Templar at level 10, being as that Knowledge religion is not a class skill. Max you could have by level 9 is...13/2=6.5, 1.5 ranks short of being a Templar. Your orc as been broken.
As well, the Order of the Bow initiate class is broken, unless of course a DM rules you can, you can't take a feat WHILE you gain a prestige class, you have to HAVE the feats ALREADY, the level BEFORE you get the prestige class. It can't simply be that you take the feat the level you want access to the prestige class, otherwise the Base Attack Bonus requirements would count as 1 level lower since you could simply...take the class and have that BAB and be considered qualified.

 

[FrankTrollman]

I never changed my position "from" 1 level per class. That was never my position:

You can take 20 levels of Combat Classes and Prestige Classes without taking more than 2 levels of any class.

Got that? Now, the examples I showed had as many as 3 or 4 levels of a class. That was because I was being lazy.

So, yes you can min max a better fightrer with extreme multi classing into prestige classes.

Then the Fighter is underpowered.

End of discussion.

In your opinion, what would a balanced Fighter class aka a "complete fighter class" look like to you in-regaurds to class ablilites?

The absolute minimum of course, is:

1 Bonus Feat
2 Bonus Feat
3 Bonus Feat
4 Bonus Feat
5 Bonus Feat
6 Bonus Feat
7 Bonus Feat
8 Bonus Feat
9 Bonus Feat
10 Bonus Feat
11 Bonus Feat
12 Bonus Feat
13 Bonus Feat
14 Bonus Feat
15 Bonus Feat
16 Bonus Feat
17 Bonus Feat
18 Bonus Feat
19 Bonus Feat
20 Bonus Feat

(Note that the ability to purchase Weapon Specialization is not a class feature any more than the ability to purchase Intimidating Rage is a class feature of the Barbarian class)

Now, every level also needs to provide a minor bonus (such as "Tumble Bonus" or "Best Effort") or provide 4 skill points.

And that's a base minimum to get the Fighter onto the track of the lowest possible values for a character class providing +1 BAB every level.

In addition, however, just as the Rogue begins getting additional abilities from level 10 on, so does the Fighter. A Fighter should get an additional Special Ability (which would in turn be worth approximately one extra feat, just like the Rogue's special abilities) at about levels 10, 13, 16, and 19.

So a Balanced Fighter would look something like this:

Hit Die: d10
BAB: Good.
Saves: Fort: Good; Reflex: Poor; Will: Poor.

Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Eswcape Artist, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Geography, History), Listen, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Sneak, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble.

Skills: 4 + Int Bonus


1 Bonus Feat
2 Bonus Feat
3 Bonus Feat
4 Bonus Feat
5 Bonus Feat
6 Bonus Feat
7 Bonus Feat
8 Bonus Feat
9 Bonus Feat
10 Bonus Feat, Special Ability
11 Bonus Feat
12 Bonus Feat
13 Bonus Feat, Special Ability
14 Bonus Feat
15 Bonus Feat
16 Bonus Feat, Special Ability
17 Bonus Feat
18 Bonus Feat
19 Bonus Feat, Special Ability
20 Bonus Feat

Special Ability: One Bonus Feat, or Mettle, Combat Sense, Defensive Blow, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, or something like that.

-

That would be kind of similar to something that might be balanced for 20 levels.

-Frank

 

[Corinth]

The point being, however, that this fact makes the Fighter class a complete waste of a level most of the time; you can get more bang for your buck by taking a level in another warrior class.

 

[Crothian]

Wow, that was great insight into things. They are much clearer now.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Secondly, Pendragon. Just because you are lacking any good arguement doesnt give you the right to call me stupid because you cant think of anything other than "buy magical items" as your solution to balancing classes. Grow-up and stop being a smuck.

Re-read my post. I called FranktheTrollman's logic stupid, in response to him calling my argument stupid. I don't use the term lightly, but if he was willing to forgo courtesy when talking to me, he also foregoes the right to it from me.

Regarding your commentary, I have a very sound, solid argument. The fact that you and FranktheTrollman refuse to acknowledge it does not change that.

As far as your little snipe goes, I'm going to let it go, since it seems to stem from you misreading my post. But I suggest that you re-read offending posts in the future, before you start slinging mud at others.

 

[Deset Gled]

Besides the problems already mentioned with your first build, here are a few things that I see as potential problems with it:

You first face the major problem that none of the PrCs you used are core. In fact, you used a total of 4 different non-core sources (3 splat books and one campaign setting). Because of that, it cannot be said that they are meant to be 100% balanced with core classes, as well as not meant to be used in conjunction with one another. You also have the problem of convincing a DM to allow you to use all of them. On top of all this, these are all 3.0 PrCs used with 3.5 core classes (which, admittedly, is probably a minor thing).

You assume that you are a worshiper of a diety with the composite longbow as a favored weapon. I know of no such diety (though I don't have Forgotten Realms, so there could be one in there). If one existed, it would have to be within one degree of Lawful Good, which you are forced to be.

You have 51 skills ranks required for the PrCs you named. Even without the problem of getting them at the right time, that leaves you with only about 15 skill points left to use as the player sees fit. This is not even enough to max out a single skill (and barely covers maxing out of Ride, since you already have 4 ranks in it as prerequisites). Since the original point of this thread was the fact that you thought Fighters didn't have enough skill points to spend, I don't see this as being a good thing.

Finally, the base abilities required for this build are:
Str: 13
Dex: 13
Con: N/A
Int: 10
Wis: 11
Cha: 12
This is a total expenditure of 19 points, using the point buy system. From your description you wanted a character with good strength (for melee, and to get use of of a composite bow), dexterity (for riding and ranged combat), constistution (as hit points are needed for a melee fighter), and charisma (to get use out of smite and lay of hands). I don't see this as working out well for someone with point buy, and it would require some lucky rolling.

 

[Unseelie]

I skipped over a number of posts, so it's possible that someone else already suggested this, but there's an existing mechanic in d20M that help with skill flexibilty: Occupations.

From the Modern SRD:
A hero may hold other jobs as his or her career unfolds, but the benefits of a starting occupation are only applied once, at the time of character creation.
Many starting occupations have a prerequisite that the character must meet to qualify for the occupation. Each occupation provides a number of additional permanent class skills that the character can select from a list of choices. Once selected, a permanent class skill is always considered to be a class skill for the character. If the skill selected is already a class skill for the character, he or she gains a one-time competence bonus for that skill.

That doesn't solve the perceived problem of a lack of skill points for Fighters. Since I tend to run more skill focused games, I'd be somewhat inclined to give everyone a bonus skill point. I will point out that the d20M equivalent of the D&D Fighter, the Strong Hero, gets:

Skill Points at 1st Level: (3 + Int modifier)x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 3 + Int modifier.

 

[The_DarkAngel]

ok.....i went all over the place and obtained everyones differnet ways of ripping apart class's into points and evaulated each class by using the best overall methods...aka....balanced methods.

(3.5 rules and 1st thru 20th levels applying here):

I found the weakest class to be: The Fighter, The Paladin (small), and the Sorceror to be the weakest.

The strongest classes are the new Ranger class, and The Monk.

The bard, cleric and druid were only a little above (all things considered) and the rouge, wizard and barbarian were right in the middle.

The hardest class to breakdown was the Wizard bacause he is aweful in low levels but out right scary at high levels. However, because most campaigns have a degree of magic items in them, its not to hard to compensate all classes to some degree. Example: a 20th level Wizard throwing spells vs a 20th level Fighter with a magical wpn and magial armor is more than fair in my opinion.

Allowing a Fighter 3 more class skills, and either 2 skill points a level or a feat above tenth level brings this class up to the middle ground (of-course some worth while feats would not hurt either...aka...wpn mastery). A sorceror could enjoy 2-3 core class skills as well as a 1d6 hit die to be brought up to par...aka...the middle ground.

Im sure this will be disputed but thats what I found. When I have a day to type all this point system crap up, I will do so.

DA

Please Note: multi-classing was not a factor however multi-classing restrictions such as the Paladins and the Monks were. Most prestige classes are unbalanced and totally left out of this analysis.

 

[garyh]

I skipped over a number of posts, so it's possible that someone else already suggested this, but there's an existing mechanic in d20M that help with skill flexibilty: Occupations.

From the Modern SRD:
A hero may hold other jobs as his or her career unfolds, but the benefits of a starting occupation are only applied once, at the time of character creation.
Many starting occupations have a prerequisite that the character must meet to qualify for the occupation. Each occupation provides a number of additional permanent class skills that the character can select from a list of choices. Once selected, a permanent class skill is always considered to be a class skill for the character. If the skill selected is already a class skill for the character, he or she gains a one-time competence bonus for that skill.

That doesn't solve the perceived problem of a lack of skill points for Fighters. Since I tend to run more skill focused games, I'd be somewhat inclined to give everyone a bonus skill point. I will point out that the d20M equivalent of the D&D Fighter, the Strong Hero, gets:

Skill Points at 1st Level: (3 + Int modifier)x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 3 + Int modifier.

D20 Modern's skill points are based on the assumption all characters are human. Thus, the classes already have the +1 skill point / level factored in. If you look at the monsters, they all have a note saying "-1 skill point per level."

 

[FrankTrollman]

The strongest classes are the new Ranger class, and The Monk.

Which just shows that your methods are limited and flawed.

The Monk is dreadful.

While he has a lot of abilities, more abilities in fact than any character except the Druid, they don't mean anything.

The vast majority of the Monk's abilities are the ability to be almost as good without equipment as any other character can be with equipment. Since the game is supposed to be balanced with the assumption that characters in fact have that equipment - all of those abilities are essentially meaningless.

A Monk's unarmed abilities are sort of impressive, but he can't actually win a grapple because his BAB is as low as a Cleric. Furthermore, even at 20th level a Monk can't hurt an incorporeal enemy (ki strike makes the hands count as magical for the purpose of penetrating DR, but not for the purpose of sundering magical weapons or affecting incorporeal foes).

So despite all the wacky things you can do in only your pajamas - none of it actually matters because you still need a magic weapon anyway.

So what you've shown there is that your system is not evaluating things well - the Monk's abilities are numerous but anti-synnergistic. The Monk is a dreadful class. If your analysis didn't show that it's because you weren't acid testing it properly.

-Frank