A Fighters skill points....

[Curugul]

...

Every class has a niche. You don't hear the wizards complaining that they can't attack 4 times a round with their longsword including a disarm, followed up with a cleave and a few trips thrown in for fun. You don't see the rogue complain that his damage output in combat dropped like a rock because he can get sneak-attack damage against undead.

Fighters are good at combat, that's what they do. If you want a little more non-combat utility play

You're arguing against yourself here. A wizard isn't complaining because he just threw a chain lightning. Do you honestly disagree that a wizard has VERY respectable combat power, if he wants it?

A rogue isn't going to complain about not out damaging the fighter THIS combat, since undead is involved. Why? Because he has a great deal of power OUTSIDE of combat. And he's likely handily doing near, or more damage than a fighter most other combats.

Let me flip your example. You'd hear the rogue's complaining about only 8 skill points a level if every other class was given +3 skill points per level (Fighters at 5, Barbs at 7, ect). Why? Because suddenly, most class's either nearly equal, equal, or exceed the rogues key ability. The rogue still has the ability to deal with magical traps, and sneak attack you say! And hes still better at skills than most class's. Seem fair?

THAT is the situation Fighters are in. Essentially 90% of the class's in the game either equal, nearly equal, or EXCEED his combat power in any given combat. Its based on the circumstances involved. And combat is all the fighter has.

So either buff the fighters utility outside combat, or make him better at it. But can you seriously look at the fighter class as it stands and think they're balanced?

Don't argue they're PLAYABLE. Anythings Playable. Are they balanced? I honestly do not understand how anyone could think that.


Curugul

 

[Crothian]

Don't argue they're PLAYABLE. Anythings Playable. Are they balanced? I honestly do not understand how anyone could think that.

They are playible, and balanced in my experience. I've yet to have a single character who played a fighter complain that they were unbalanced. In fact, in every game I've DMed and played in the fighters have always done very well. Even in the epic level play, the fighter was able to use what the class provides and be effective and have fun.

For me game experience is the final judge. The game is meant to be played, not torn apart on message boards and argued about.

So, could the fighter use some boosting? Sure, give it four skill points a level and few more class skills. Heck, trade out some class skills to fit whatever your vision of the character concept is.

 

[The_DarkAngel]

They are playible, and balanced in my experience. I've yet to have a single character who played a fighter complain that they were unbalanced. In fact, in every game I've DMed and played in the fighters have always done very well. Even in the epic level play, the fighter was able to use what the class provides and be effective and have fun.

That’s a funny statement since most people who even consider the fighter balanced do agree that at later levels he is stale. You’re the only one who thinks the opposite.

Game is meant to be balanced, then played in my opinion, and its from “playing” that I noticed something isn’t right. Some of us choose to challenge the rules and ask why. You’re posting a hell of a lot for someone who plays instead of "arguing" as you say.

DA

 

[Crothian]

Just because I perfer to see how things actually work then debate them on message boards does by no means mean I won't participate in a debate. It's not like we can all sit around the same gaming table and see how things work out. Well, we can if everyone wants to come to Origins next year

Edit: And how many people have truely gone Epic and used the epic rules? I think people seem to be talking about what they think from reading the rules then actually playing these high level games.

 

[Ketjak]

That’s a funny statement since most people who even consider the fighter balanced do agree that at later levels he is stale. You’re the only one who thinks the opposite.

No, he's not.

Game is meant to be balanced, then played in my opinion, and its from “playing” that I noticed something isn’t right. Some of us choose to challenge the rules and ask why. You’re posting a hell of a lot for someone who plays instead of "arguing" as you say.

DA

What does

"playing"

mean? Why the quotes? Have you tried the core (not house-ruled) Fighter class? For 20 levels, or even into the teens?

Humanophile has the best solution yet: those who think the class skills are restrictive should use his solution. The answer is not to increase skill points per level, it's to increase the breadth of the Fighter's class skills with non-critical skills. If that still doesn't fit the character concept you have in mind, try a Ranger or one of the other Fighter BAB classes.

 

[Bauglir]

Without requoting the entirety of your commentation, I'd like to point out that you've now demanded far more from the rogue than he reasonably has skillpoints.

Your hypothetical party rogue has the following skills:
Gather Information
Hide
Move Silently
Appraise
Escape Artist
Spot
Search
Disable Device
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Use Rope
Craft

This rogue now demands 12 SPs/lvl. And this doesn't even include the some of the rest of the Rogue's core packages, which is generally implied, but was not specifically mentioned:
Listen
Open Lock

I'm not entirely sure how you're planning on getting all of these skillpoints, but I'm rather certain your rogue CAN'T do all of these things.

A human rogue with int 16+, or any other race with int 18+ could max out all of these things..

 

[hong]

A human rogue with int 16+, or any other race with int 18+ could max out all of these things..

Indeed, it is true that the current skill points by class are perfectly adequate for a 40 point buy game.

 

[Darklone]

A rogue without maxxed Bluff skill?????

 

[LuYangShih]

Not to mention that skill of skills, Tumble.

 

[Ketjak]

Indeed, it is true that the current skill points by class are perfectly adequate for a 40 point buy game.

Drama.

Human Rogue (32 points, 16 14 14 12 12 10)
S 12 D 14 C 10 I 16 W 12 Ch 12

Elven Rogue (32 points, 18 14 12 10 10 10)
S 10 D 16 C 10 I 18 W 10 Ch 10

Some skills are useful at less than maximum values. Try:

(12 skill points/level, 48 at 1st)
.................1st..2nd..3rd..4th etc.
Appraise.........+2...+0...+1...+0
Craft............+2...+1...+0...+1
Disable Device...+4...+1...+1...+1
Escape Artist....+2...+0...+1...+0
Gather Info......+2...+1...+0...+1
Hide.............+4...+1...+1...+1
Listen...........+4...+1...+1...+1
Move Silently....+4...+1...+1...+1
Open Lock........+4...+1...+1...+1
Search...........+4...+1...+1...+1
Spot.............+4...+1...+1...+1
Sense Motive.....+2...+0...+1...+0
Sleight of Hand..+2...+1...+0...+1
Tumble...........+4...+1...+1...+1
Use Magic Device.+2...+0...+1...+0
Use Rope.........+2...+1...+0...+1

Add in stat bonuses as applicable.

There's no denying that this Rogue is all over the board. However, he can do it. The situation gets better as he rises in level as some skills reach a plateau in effectiveness.

The Rogue is the "skill specialist." The Ranger is the "skilled warrior." The Fighter is the "combat specialist." These classes work - and are balanced - as designed. The Fighter may not be flashy - but it's a well-balanced class. Humanophile's changes improve it without hurting balance.

Can we wrap this one now?