A Fighters skill points....

[Thanee]

single classed warriors and multiclassed spellcasters are under powered.

Yep.

Altho at the highest levels (bordering on epic play) slightly multiclassed spellcasters (i.e. 1-3 levels of another class) are probably the most impressive. My Arcane Trickster and my (not Frank's ) Archer Rogue/Cleric are both quite powerful characters (the Cleric already at mid levels).

Bye
Thanee

 

[S'mon]

In 3.5, they spread out the Paladin's powewrs even WORSE.
In 3.0, the pally sucked at level 3 also (because who gives a rat's &* about Remove Disease, and unless he's using Divine Feats, his sucky Turn Undead is almost a non-benefit.
Notice I'm ignoring his spells - for good reason.
Other than Level 5's mount, there's nothing for a paladin in 3.0 after Smite.

The real brutal thing about balancing a paladin that I haven't mentioned is: A Paladin is almost required to be a single-class character to be any good, due to all his abilities being level dependant.
However, the real kick in the nuts is that unlike a mage, the Paladins abilities are strictly linear (you notice I'm ignoring his spells).
So a Paladin, unlike any other class in the game, is the one that has the most restrictive roleplaying flexibility, has among the least multi-class flexibility, yet doesn't gain exponential benefits at high paladin levels.

If I could dream of a Paladin tweak, it would be that Paladins would gain kick-ass abilities at higher levels (drop the stupid spellcasting that's triply-handicapped: slow progression, crappy spell-list, and half-caster level) that would compare with what mages get at high level.
Give them enough power at high level to actually cause the EVIL forces to quake in fear at his presence - make him a legendary figure, make him worthy of tales to be sung for centuries, give him the ability to shrug off the worst spells that Evil can throw at him.
Give his sword the ability to cut thru a ForceCage, for example.

Do some damn work to make this game heroic, for god's sake, WotC!

WARNING - House Rule thought ahead...

Rather than give Paladins spellcasting powers, maybe they should more appropriately get Spell Resistance from 4th level? That seems to me to fit a lot better with the concept. I'd suggest SR of half level + 10, so SR 12 at 4th level, SR 13 at 6th, up to SR 20 at 20th. That would help prevent them being held, charmed etc by low-level enemy spellcasters. It's probably a bit more powerful than their spellcasting powers, but Paladins need a bit of a boost anyway IMO.

 

[green slime]

On comparing the fighter to the Barbarian, and the comment that Fighter's with 5 points (using point buy) in Int are somehow suffering...

Barbarians need a higher Dex just to maintain their AC at a reasonable level, assuming that they want to keep their class abilities. So given this, those five extra point buys get eaten to achieve a Dex 16 vs Dex 13. (For instance)

The point is, that the very feat flexibility of the well-planned fighter enables him to handle the threat of a raging barbarian, or an Archer, or a multitude of other threats on the battlefield.

And while you may make a better Dex fighter by multiclassing with ranger and barbarian, I can't see you achieving a better Will save at the same time, nor the ability to create a better tank. IMX Dex fighters are very brittle. Absolutely brilliant when they get the opportunity, but oh so fragile.

I was very disappointed that they did not include the Divine feats in the revision. Such an obvious oversight.

 

[reapersaurus]

I was very disappointed that they did not include the Divine feats in the revision. Such an obvious oversight.

Hehe - that's a good one.
I'd love to see them too, but then WotC would have to spend an hour or so deciding what to do to fix them, yet make them playable.
Half of the Divine Feats are an absolute joke, and Divine Shield is arguably broken, and Divine Might is either overpowered or arguably underpowered, depending on how they want to flip the coin on the activation ruling.

S'mon - good out-of-the-box thinking, but that low of SR really isn't very helpful to a PC. The vast majority of play centers on threats that are of equal or greater level than the PC's, so an SR that low wouldn't come into play that often.

The more I think of how to tweak D&D to better it, the more I'm convinced that because WotC defined the base class (Ftr) to only get 1 feat every 2 levels, than any attempt at tweaking it will fail, due to anything interesting and fun being overpowered in comparison to the base Ftr class.

 

[S'mon]

S'mon - good out-of-the-box thinking, but that low of SR really isn't very helpful to a PC. The vast majority of play centers on threats that are of equal or greater level than the PC's, so an SR that low wouldn't come into play that often.

The more I think of how to tweak D&D to better it, the more I'm convinced that because WotC defined the base class (Ftr) to only get 1 feat every 2 levels, than any attempt at tweaking it will fail, due to anything interesting and fun being overpowered in comparison to the base Ftr class.

I tend to agree on your latter point - IMC I spend more effort powering up the Fighter than anything else - some stuff from Mongoose's Quintessential Fighter is good for this.

Re Paladin SR - IMC (lowish magic) many opponents are 2-4 levels below the PCs. If you're right I can see a good case for giving the Paladin +1 SR/level, eg 6+1 SR/level (start at SR 10 at 4th level, go to SR 26) - that gives 25% chance of spell resistance vs foe of equal level, which sounds reasonable.

 

[green slime]

Well, IMC we use the Divine Might and Divine Vigour as written, but with the caveat that Quicken Turning affects all activation of Divine feats.

Divine shield could be fixed quite easily, providing a bonus to AC, that also functions against touch attacks and incorporeal attacks. Haven't really thought about it too much, but it shouldn't be a problem to get it back into line; not exactly brain surgery this stuff.

Secondly, one of the main problems is the number and types of abilities that are handed out willy-nilly to prestige classes. Many prestige classes don't really require any real sacrifices to get in to, acerbating the problem.

However, I am quite strict with PrCs in our game. Anything outside the Core rule books is optional. Claiming that because WotC published some crap a$$ PrC in a supplement is no justification that it has to be included in anyones game. It isn't like they sit there with this amazing vision of how it all should be.

Just looking at their motivations for some of the rules changes from 3.0 to 3.5 makes one wonder what exactly they think they are up to. There aren't enough Dwarfs being played?????? What about half-elves or half-orcs???

 

[LuYangShih]

Actually, both of those points were addressed, you chose to ignore that.

Actually, no, those points were not addressed. Virtually everyone agrees the Fighter needs more class skills and skillpoints, save for a few claiming the Fighters dominance in combat makes up for it. What dominance in combat?

Second, no one really addressed the lack of a reason to continue in the Fighter class at higher levels. Crothians example is nice, but the fact is it requires non core, non WoTC material. And you can get nearly all of those feats, plus a truckload of skillpoints and other abilities by multiclassing. Once again, the Fighter is lacking in both the roleplaying and powergaming departments because of these two issues.


PS

I would also agree Paladins get the shaft, as do Barbarians to a lesser extent.

 

[Storminator]

Actually, no, those points were not addressed. Virtually everyone agrees the Fighter needs more class skills and skillpoints, save for a few claiming the Fighters dominance in combat makes up for it. What dominance in combat?

Second, no one really addressed the lack of a reason to continue in the Fighter class at higher levels. Crothians example is nice, but the fact is it requires non core, non WoTC material. And you can get nearly all of those feats, plus a truckload of skillpoints and other abilities by multiclassing. Once again, the Fighter is lacking in both the roleplaying and powergaming departments because of these two issues.


PS

I would also agree Paladins get the shaft, as do Barbarians to a lesser extent.

Actually yes, those points were addressed. Multiple paths were proposed to keep high level fighters viable, and builds were put together of your knight-errant example.

PS

 

[Crothian]

Second, no one really addressed the lack of a reason to continue in the Fighter class at higher levels. Crothians example is nice, but the fact is it requires non core, non WoTC material. And you can get nearly all of those feats, plus a truckload of skillpoints and other abilities by multiclassing. Once again, the Fighter is lacking in both the roleplaying and powergaming departments because of these two issues.

First, who cares about core?? What does it matter who it is written by? AEG does some damn good stuff, and I think it insulting to them and the other companies to look down and question their material because its not Wotc.

And one can't get that many feats through multiclassing. Even assuming you can find presitge classes that give a free feat, one still has to get the prerequites for that prestige class.

 

[LuYangShih]

AEG has good material? Please. After I looked over a few feats from Swashbuckling Adventures, I became convinced that AEG is the last company I should ever buy material from. Outside companies rarely have the standards WoTC does, and it really is a matter of preference whether or not you think it is worth it. Most DMs are not going to allow non WoTC material, and those that do usually want to look over every rule you want to apply from such books. And for good reason.