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A gamist defense of limited in-combat healing

tomBitonti

Adventurer
I think Tom B's idea is interesting but the one problem is that these resources would be interrupts and we know that the number of interrupts in 4th ed could be a problem in terms of speed of play.

Yeah, it does create problems for how and when players spend actions.

Also, at what point does the game system cease to be D&D? (Or D&D-esque?) Not that the notions (blocks, parries, dodges, magical deflections) can't be a part of a very fine game system, they just don't feel like D&D to me. Block has been a shield bonus to AC; dodge a dodge bonus to AC, and so forth.

Thx!

TomB
 

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Ridley's Cohort

First Post
The defaults systems are intended to keep it simple for figuring out how to "remove a unit" from the battlefield.

Tactical mitigations are a fabulous way to create a complex tactical system. D&D is not the system for this. Why not just give your Fighter more HPs?

We want your PC to be at risk of dropping unconscious when luck turns bad, and you are wondering if anyone can heal you in time. The good quality healing effects cost Actions, so if we balance the Action economy for mitigation actions we can get really long combats, and it is still more of less the same as extra HP at the end of the day.

It is quite possible those really long combats will be very interesting to some people. Maybe even me (I have a fondness for complexity). But others will think they are just plain long.
 

pemerton

Legend
If you have 2 hit points, but your turn is coming and you have a second wind (or whatever healing), you don't really have 2 hit points.

<snip>

I don't think experienced players buy that at all. D&D players are an analytical bunch.
Assuming that the character's total hit points are significantly larger than the volume of one burst of healing, and significantly larger than the amount of damage the character is likely to take in one turn, that healing can easily be expended in a calculated, stress-free fashion to maximize durability.
Are you basing your analysis on play experience, or theory?

The pacing of combat that RangeWicket describes in the OP is exactly the one I've seen again and again in 4e combats. I have quite a strong dislike of traditional D&D "victory by attrition", and one of the reasons I stopped GMing Rolemaster in favour of GMing 4e was precisely because it had robust mechanics to make combat something other than attrition. And incombat healing, as described in the OP, is one of them.

There is no doubt that players, through clever analysis of the ingame situaion, can work out how to optimise their healing. Just as, through clever analysis, they can work out how to optimise their attacks. This is part of the attraction of playing a mechanically crunchy, rules-based tactical game. But it doesn't make the game unexciting. For these players (and, frankly, if you're not one of these players, why are you wasting your time on 4e?), it is a source of excitement.

Just like it's exciting to see impossibly many enemies, and work out that if the mage just telports the fighter here, and the fighter then attacks and marks this many foes, and the paladin goes and holds this other bottleneck, then it might just work out provided that the PC sorcerer taking up position on the roof isn't spotted by any scouts that the bad guys might have . . .

It's a dimension of tactical gameplay, and a source of excitement, that 4e reliably delivers. I would go so far as to say that it is the most striking feature of 4e combat - it's only competitor in that respect is the importance of movement and position.

You have to reach your turn (or an ally needs to help you). In by far the majority of cases I have seen, that is not a trivial stipulation.
But if you have to choose between attacking your foe or backing off and catching your breath -- or if your party healer needs to rush into the fray to keep you alive, putting himself at risk -- it's not an empty choice.
Yes to both of these. 4e has integrated incombat healing into its action economy, its movement and positioning rules, etc. I don't know if I would call the integration "elegant" (there are a lot of moving parts, and sometimes they're not imperceptibly smooth in their movement), but I think it pretty reliably produces a good gaming experience.

The problem here is that manufactured excitement feels manufactured. Organically grown excitement provides 50% more of the daily recommended levels of awesome.
In the context of a game - which is iteslf an artefact - this distinction is artificial (or, if you prefer, manufactured).

The question is - is it more exciting to know that, unless you roll 96+ op your attack roll (and therefore go open-ended), your PC will die? Or to know that, unless the player of the cleric PC can come up with some clever plan to keep your PC alive, s/he will die? I've played both games. Both can be exciting. I think 4e is more reliably exciting, because it produces the need for the hard tactical choices more often.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
Are you basing your analysis on play experience, or theory?
I have plenty of experience with healing, and my experience is that it quickly become rote, an assumed resource that is not particularly appreciated or particularly exciting. A really good dedicated healer can break the mold and rescue victory from the jaws of the defeat, but that's the exception.

There is no doubt that players, through clever analysis of the ingame situaion, can work out how to optimise their healing. Just as, through clever analysis, they can work out how to optimise their attacks.
Optimizing attacks is not inherently very exciting either. The human decisions in combat can be exciting, but a lot of what makes combat work is its unpredictability, which comes largely through dice. Healing is less exciting tactically because there are fewer choices involved so it is more predictable, and because there are rarely many dice rolls; you can't "miss" a heal in D&D.

I have quite a strong dislike of traditional D&D "victory by attrition
I'm not seeing how any form of combat isn't that. It's still just gradually beating away at the opponent's resources until someone runs out.
 

The question is - is it more exciting to know that, unless you roll 96+ op your attack roll (and therefore go open-ended), your PC will die? Or to know that, unless the player of the cleric PC can come up with some clever plan to keep your PC alive, s/he will die? I've played both games. Both can be exciting. I think 4e is more reliably exciting, because it produces the need for the hard tactical choices more often.

IMHO that which is reliable isn't exciting precisely because its reliable.
 

Shadeydm

First Post
It would be interesting to see healing surges reworked (and renamed) to represent some sort of damage avoidance mechanism. Perhaps they become available once the character is bloodied and let the character spend one to negate a hit via parry or dodge, luck etc. Then question becomes should they still be capped by the day or by the encounter or both?
 

pemerton

Legend
I'm not seeing how any form of combat isn't that. It's still just gradually beating away at the opponent's resources until someone runs out.
What sort of combat systems have you got in mind? Rolemaster and Runequest aren't victory by attrition - they lead to death/disablement through injury rather than death through resource depletion.

High level 3E, I understand, also has a tendency to replace death by attrition with death by failed saving throw.

4e has an obvious attrition element - hit points have to be dropped to zero. But it has enough else going on that attrition isn't all, and at various moments is far from the only, exciting thing going on. Of the five PCs in my game, one is a striker (chaos sorcerer), one a hybrid ranger-cleric (mostly played as a striker) and one a reasonably high-damage paladin (so a defender/leader with a bit of striker, especially vs bloodied enemies). Two are not based around damage at all, but rather control: the fighter and the wizard.

This is certainly a marked contrast from Rolemaster, which - while not an attrition-based game - is not a game that makes non-damage-dealing a signficinat part of combat. It's an interesting and (for me) appealing element of 4e.

I have plenty of experience with healing
I meant in 4e.

my experience is that it quickly become rote, an assumed resource that is not particularly appreciated or particularly exciting.
It's an assumed resource like weapons and spells. But choosing how to deploy spells has always been an interesting aspect of fantasy RPGing for me, and I think for my players also.

Optimizing attacks is not inherently very exciting either. The human decisions in combat can be exciting, but a lot of what makes combat work is its unpredictability, which comes largely through dice.
We have quite different experiences, then. It's true that dice can be exciting - I gave the example from Rolemaster upthread, of needing an open-ended roll to save the party from TPK (and I've seen it done twice in nearly 20 years of RM GMing, and it's always dramatic).

But the tension and drama of having to make choices in a situation of imperfect information and changing parameters can also be exciting. 4e's healing mechanics, and integration of them into the action economy, introduces a dimension to this that, for me at least, is new - it isn't part of Rolemaster, nor part of classic (pre-3E) D&D. And at least based on my reading of the 3E core books, I don't feel it's such a part of that game either, because they don't have the "You can get your hit points back, but only if you unlock a surge" mechanism that is central to 4e.
 


Crazy Jerome

First Post
I don't think that's true at all. Going on a rollercoaster is reliably exciting. That's how amusement parks sell tickets.

(And any number of other examples would serve just as well.)

Well, a rollercoaster is "manufactored" excitement too. :D However, everything in an RPG is manufactored excitement. It's merely that the techniques for manufactoring it vary widely. Naturally, some of these techniques appeal to some people more than others. Which is why basing a critique on X being manufactored is a null argument. :D

No one wants really excitement in a roleplaying game. Hey, fail this roll, and Blackleaf will die! What was it Churchill said after covering the Boer war, something like, "Nothing is so exhilirating as being shot at without results." If you want that kind of excitement while sitting around your table playing a game, you might want to call 1-800-GET-HELP.

How about instead of "manufactored", we say that the excitement is largely empathetic or sympathetic (two slightly different things)? The excitement of healing surges and other in-combat healing is largely emphathetic, in that it puts you in the role of feeling like your character--you were down and in trouble, but then someone did something that brought you back. The excitement of not having such, and depending upon after-combat healing is largely sympathetic--your character Fred is down and in trouble, and if someone doesn't get this over with soon, Fred is a goner. :D
 

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