A Kensai's Signature Weapon

[Zelc]

And based on that interpretation he will be the terror of that party until everyone else catches up. Whereas everyone else will be getting new items and he will have to hold onto that one cause he can't get rid of it and he can't change it or whatever.

What about games that end at those levels? Do you think it's realistic that the Kensai gets his end-game +10 weapon at level 11?

Long term balances out. The game is long term based...hence the levels. Plus an 11th level character saving up his signature weapon thing until he gets a +4 weapon thing is kind of silly. He would be upgrading whatever weapon he was using up to that point. AGain...game play mechanics. Now if you were creating a character starting at 11 level...then I can see the issue.

Wait. That interpretation doesn't make any sense. So if a char with 3 levels of Kensai starts with a masterwork item, he can have a +3 weapon max, but if a char with 3 levels of Kensai starts with a +3 weapon, he can have a +6 weapon? If you want to treat the weapon bonus and the Signature Weapon bonus separately, then you should treat them separately. Otherwise it creates some really perverse incentives such as a Kensai hoping his weapon gets destroyed. And don't say roleplay balances it; if that Kensai attacks a Delver with the weapon, is it because he wants a better weapon or because he wants to protect his party members?


Re Wealth By Level: Players are balanced around having a certain amount of gold at a certain level (page 135 in DMG?). So a level 10 character is assumed to have 49,000 gold. Giving them more items makes them more powerful, and giving them less makes them less powerful. Giving the level 10 character a +10 sword might even bump his CR up by 2...

 

[Hyperfist]

What about games that end at those levels? Do you think it's realistic that the Kensai gets his end-game +10 weapon at level 11?


Wait. That interpretation doesn't make any sense. So if a char with 3 levels of Kensai starts with a masterwork item, he can have a +3 weapon max, but if a char with 3 levels of Kensai starts with a +3 weapon, he can have a +6 weapon? If you want to treat the weapon bonus and the Signature Weapon bonus separately, then you should treat them separately. Otherwise it creates some really perverse incentives such as a Kensai hoping his weapon gets destroyed. And don't say roleplay balances it; if that Kensai attacks a Delver with the weapon, is it because he wants a better weapon or because he wants to protect his party members?


Re Wealth By Level: Players are balanced around having a certain amount of gold at a certain level (page 135 in DMG?). So a level 10 character is assumed to have 49,000 gold. Giving them more items makes them more powerful, and giving them less makes them less powerful. Giving the level 10 character a +10 sword might even bump his CR up by 2...

Again...that +10 limit won't be reached unless he gets a +4 weapon earlier on. Does that upset the WBL example already? If so...then the game was already unbalanced.

As for Kensai hoping his weapon gets destroyed, that is a game play issue. That should be dealt with by the DM.

As for the +6 enhancement bonus weapon...not going to happen. Follow the Magic Weapon creation rules. AFter all you are in effect re-creating a more powerful magic weapon. That's what that rule is for. And the +10 limit is part of that. AGain..+4 weapon at level 7 or 8....is that beyond the WBL or at the limit?

 

[Zelc]

So right now there seems to be 3 interpretations of how the Signature Weapon ability works.

1) The Signature Weapon ability looks at the total weapon bonus of the weapon. Thus, a character with 4 levels of Kensai that designates a newly-crafted +3 Longsword as his Signature Weapon can raise it to a +4 Longsword, but no higher. This is the position endorsed by the FAQ.

2) The Signature Weapon ability puts the magic bonus inherent within the item and the magic bonus are in two different buckets, so to speak. They can't add up to more than 10, but you can progress these two buckets separately.

3) The Signature Weapon ability adds on to the magic bonus inherent within the item, but once that occurs the magic bonus of the weapon is placed in one bucket. You can no longer upgrade the base magic item without reducing the amount of the Signature Weapon ability you can place in it.

I don't see how #3 can be supportable for several reasons.

- It doesn't make sense. Why should the Signature Weapon ignore the inherent magic bonus when first applied, but then later upgrading the base weapon through normal crafting rules reduce the Signature Weapon bonus?

- It's a pain to keep track of. As with the previous point, you'd have to keep track of the initial magic bonus and any added magic bonuses after it became a Signature Weapon.

- It creates perverse incentives. If you can find a way to get away with losing your Signature Weapon, you can get a better Signature Weapon.

 

[Hyperfist]

So right now there seems to be 3 interpretations of how the Signature Weapon ability works.

1) The Signature Weapon ability looks at the total weapon bonus of the weapon. Thus, a character with 4 levels of Kensai that designates a newly-crafted +3 Longsword as his Signature Weapon can raise it to a +4 Longsword, but no higher. This is the position endorsed by the FAQ.

2) The Signature Weapon ability puts the magic bonus inherent within the item and the magic bonus are in two different buckets, so to speak. They can't add up to more than 10, but you can progress these two buckets separately.

3) The Signature Weapon ability adds on to the magic bonus inherent within the item, but once that occurs the magic bonus of the weapon is placed in one bucket. You can no longer upgrade the base magic item without reducing the amount of the Signature Weapon ability you can place in it.

I don't see how #3 can be supportable for several reasons.

- It doesn't make sense. Why should the Signature Weapon ignore the inherent magic bonus when first applied, but then later upgrading the base weapon through normal crafting rules reduce the Signature Weapon bonus?

- It's a pain to keep track of. As with the previous point, you'd have to keep track of the initial magic bonus and any added magic bonuses after it became a Signature Weapon.

- It creates perverse incentives. If you can find a way to get away with losing your Signature Weapon, you can get a better Signature Weapon.

Uhm
2 and 3 are similar. The enhancement bonus will stack. And you still need to keep track of it.
You just don't expend as much xp. If you lose your Signature Weapon and start from a nonmagical MW weapon, that is even more xp used. So getting it up to +10 is very costly. Whereas if you use a weapon that is already magical (i.e. family heirloom or treasure) you still have the +10 limit as it is creating or enhancing a magic item, but you don't burn so much xp. When you think about it. You are still getting the same type of weapon if you started out non-magical, just get to it faster and don't burn all the xp.

And I do understand the entire thing about getting a really high level weapon at 11th level.

As we say, DM giveth, DM taketh away.

If you lose your Signature weapon, you don't get your xp back. That is the penalty for getting rid or losing it in the first place.

It really isn't that hard to keep track of. Separate notation is required. Not that a big deal. After all the character gens we do. Writing a notation every level gained is not that big a deal. Not like you have to change it every time you game. Unless you level up. Then it is a fun type of change.

P.S. Could you provide a link to this FAQ please. I usually follow what the FAQ and errata put out there as rule changes.

Thanks.

 

[squee]

What? It's not like you can't stop upgrading your weapon with cash after you start taking levels in Kensai. At level 11, a normal melee character could have a +4 weapon. Since 6 of those levels are in Kensai, under your interpretation you'd also add a +6 weapon bonus on top of that, for a +10 weapon.

But the cost to upgrade the weapon from +8-+9 would still be 34000 on it's own. It's true there's nothing to prevent you from spending the cash to upgrade your weapon if you have the cash but the Kensai bonus will likely make the cost prohibitive.

 

[Hyperfist]

But the cost to upgrade the weapon from +8-+9 would still be 34000 on it's own. It's true there's nothing to prevent you from spending the cash to upgrade your weapon if you have the cash but the Kensai bonus will likely make the cost prohibitive.

The cost is actually worse cause you are paying in experience points.

 

[Zelc]

2 and 3 are similar. The enhancement bonus will stack. And you still need to keep track of it.

No, in #2 the weapon enhancement and the Kensai Signature Weapon bonus are in two separate buckets. So if the base weapon is a +3 weapon, and you want a crafter to add a Flaming enhancement to it, it'll cost you 14k even if your Kensai bonus added another +4 weapon bonus to it. That avoids those three problems I listed at the end of my post.

When you think about it. You are still getting the same type of weapon if you started out non-magical, just get to it faster and don't burn all the xp.

The XP expenditure is a small price to pay to get a +10 weapon at level 11 or 12. I don't think you really appreciate the power of having better magic items. Getting that +10 weapon at level 11 might very well make your character as powerful as a level 13 character with the standard WBL.

If you lose your Signature weapon, you don't get your xp back. That is the penalty for getting rid or losing it in the first place.

That's fine. I'd trade 4k XP to have a +10 weapon at level 11.

It really isn't that hard to keep track of. Separate notation is required. Not that a big deal.

OK, so let's suppose we have a Fighter 5/Kensai 2. Originally, he had a +1 Longsword before he got into the Kensai level. After getting the first Kensai level, he made it a +2 Longsword. He then somehow found a huge treasure trove and hired a crafter to upgrade it to a +3 Longsword. Then he gained his second Kensai level. Can he add another +1 bonus to the Longsword through the Signature Weapon ability?

P.S. Could you provide a link to this FAQ please. I usually follow what the FAQ and errata put out there as rule changes.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/faq

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But the cost to upgrade the weapon from +8-+9 would still be 34000 on it's own. It's true there's nothing to prevent you from spending the cash to upgrade your weapon if you have the cash but the Kensai bonus will likely make the cost prohibitive.

You can buy the +4 weapon, then upgrade it using the Kensai ability. 3k XP is a small price to pay for a +10 weapon at level 11.

 

[Hyperfist]

Hahahaha.
You would have gotten me to shut up a long time ago if you had told me it was errata'ed.

Oh well.

I guess the difference is the way we play...our story line is so important, that experience is hard to come by. So we guard that as much as possible. You might be willing to give up xp.....I am not.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hahahaha.
You would have gotten me to shut up a long time ago if you had told me it was errata'ed.

It wasn't; an answer appeared in the FAQ. Not the same thing, but as far as 'a long time ago' goes, the FAQ was mentioned in the original post, and quoted in post 3.

-Hyp.

 

[Hyperfist]

True. You have a point. I guess I completely forgot about the original post. Considering how many were intervening.

If it wasn't errata'ed...then why does the FAQ represent it as something obviously different from the CW?

As I mentioned earlier, having a +10 weapon is a nasty thing at 11th level. I can agree with that. But as a DM, you can control that to some degree. Magic items are given, bought, earned, and taken away. That is why my DM doesn't worry about it too much. Then again, he keeps us magic poor anyways.