A killer puzzle that makes me want to pull my hair out.

[GSHamster]

IWhat's the "on prisoners" thing you're supposed to look to? And what's that go to do with "Wrath" or "Justice"?

It sounds like a subsection of the index.

Wrath
...on dancing
...on prisoners
...on punishment

There are probably many verses dealing with Wrath. This gets a specific verse that deals with Wrath and prisoners. Relatively clever, actually.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

Ugh. Classic screw the player for not being a smart as their character senario. And this was the introductory session?! Wow. Great way to kick off a camapign!

 

[Aikuchi]

(hugs) Just thought you might need one, OP.

I'll admit that I wouldn't be able to understand ot solve the puzzle either. I could be a study of religion but then, the religions I would more likely recognize are eastern ones. Something that could be seemingly simple, across cultural barriers (religious or otherwise) would be lost to me.

I do agree with some here that, if one cannot solve the puzzle in about an hour (real time), then a roll is probably necessary to keep the game moving and allowing the character to continue on exercising their skills and talents as written. There is little roleplay when the interaction in that single hour is only between a puzzle and a person and little feedback or reaction in between.

Especially for an early session that resulted in end of a character.

A challenge is a challenge, not a stringent test on the players patience, concepts, ideals or virtues. Anything this terminal so early is ... detrimental at best for the continuation of the game. Unless the rest (players) prefer it or have had fair warning but still want to play, in which you have already said: I'm having everything thats the opposite of 'fun'. Thats a cue to stop being 'stubborn' about the ideals of the "challenge" and concentrate on getting your player back into the game.


---

(quick hug)

 

[GSHamster]

And everyone should know that? The type of puzzle is separate from the fact that it was a situation that the player had to deal with who may or may not know puzzles and it is the character that suffers the consequences. That's not a good mix for the game, even worse when its a matter of life and death.

What I meant by that is that the puzzle itself tells you how to solve it. "Speak, friend, and enter" literally says to speak the word "friend". Similarly this puzzle contained the instructions on how to solve it. I'm not sure the DM could have given any other hints other than "look up wrath and justice in the Bible".

Actually, it could be way out of line. Religion is touchy at best and forcing someone to look up material in any religious text as a crucial part of a game is seriously out of line unless the DM and Player both have discussed it ahead of time. If the Player doesn't mind and likes a Sunday School lesson thrown in with an rpg, that's about the only exception to it not being out of line.

A Sunday School lesson taught by a Wiccan and involving the Book of Mormon?

If you are going to play in the real world, and involve history to any degree, you are going to encounter religion. To attempt to pretend otherwise is naive at best. After all, you're playing a game that already involves the legend of Cain.

As well, his character took ranks or skills in Religion, implicitly making Religion fair game as a topic. If his character was an atheist plumber, than yeah, dragging him into a religious topic is excessive, but the player chose his weapons.

That's not roleplaying. There's no interaction between the character and anything at that point. For that puzzle it was the Player having to solve it (or not, in this case) and the DM killing off the character because the Player--not the character--failed to solve it. The character was well trained on the subject of Religion and should have had no problems solving the puzzle, the Player, not so similarly trained, failed. Ability/Skill checks should have provided signifigant clues about solving it and the DM should have known that the Player does not have the same training as the character and cannot do the things that the character in game could do. Clues could have been provided and hints given to lead the player to the correct answer. That would have demonstrated some value in the character's religious training (as well as allowing the Player the chance to use that skill with meaningful results), and would have been more satisfying helping him along so he could come to the answer himself; rather than just giving the answer for a good roll, or outright denying it because the Player did not have the character's knowledge.

My opinion is that puzzles are a bad idea for roleplaying games. Either the player is more knowledgeable than the character, and earns them a victory they should not have had. Or the the player is less knowledgeable than the character, and the character loses unfairly.

I'm just saying that if you live by the sword, you die by the sword. (Role-playing vs roll-playing)

As well, in my opinion, the puzzle was fairly easy. The DM was not out of line to think that her player could solve it. The player just missed seeing the solution, and kind of got fixated on a wrong train of thought.

I do think the DM poorly handled the player not being able to solve it, but that was understandable as a rookie mistake. It's a hard question of should she let the puzzle play out, and enforce real consequences, or should she give the player the answer, and just let the game keep going.

 

[Deadguy]

My sympathies to wingsandsword - yeah, I've been caught out by these sorts of 'fun' problem before, and they almost never are. And GSHamster: well whoopdi-doo! But boy do you sound smug! You spotted the answer after being told the solution. Would you really have done so well in the heat of the game, alone with the survival of a character dependent on it?! Agh! These sorts of things want to make me scream! Enough with the unfun stuff!

P.S. and no edition of the Bible I have owned has an index. I did once own a separate book that helped you look up verses.

P.P.S. How did the game advance for you wingsandsword, since you're playing a corpse already? And have you had any feedback from the other players about their quizzes.

 

[ceratitis]

while many replies here refer to the level of dificulty of the riddle i think its irrelevant. to me the fact that your DM saw you getting terribly frustrated and constently comenting the clues she gives you are irrelevant and did nothing about it is the major issue here. in the end killing your char and saying that the only problem she saw was you complaining is just spite.
it sounds like she's a classic DM vs PCs type to me and that is a major problem. someone mentioned that if this was a riddle in the vatican or an old church he wouldnt even give out the bible and the tru believers would have passed it with ease and i agree they would have but that is exactly the kind of knowledge the skill knowledge religion represents. your char would have solved it without a second thought probably even half way through the dispription of the room but expecting you to do the same is just mean.
i hope you work things out and end up playing and having lots of fun but to be honest if this attitude of her's continues you should consider leaving the group. i would.
Z

p.s
i personally like riddles a lot and we have many of them in our game, they add lots of fun mainly 'cos out dm doesnt kill you when you cant figure it out right away. in this game more then any other in the world its all about how you play not about winning/solving the riddle

 

[Hussar]

Now that I think about it, I never would have gotten it myself, because I didn't realize the Bible even had an index.

Add me to this pile as well. I've looked at more than a few Bibles, and never seen an index. I've seen a Concordance, but that's not part of any Bible I've read.

So, basically, GSHamster, to all of us who have no idea that a Bible even has an index, this puzzle is too difficult. But, the character, with so much religious knowledge, would have known instantly. So, instead of giving vague hints, why not tell the player exactly what the character would have known, namely, "Look at the index"?

The assumption here, on the part of the riddle maker, is that the player should have knowledge that is not all that common - indexes in Bibles. The other mistake the GM made was to not give the player knowledge that his character should have had. That assumption, combined with that mistake led to a very bad session.

Riddles in the game should be open ended, as an earlier poster mentioned, to judge the player's mindset, not to make the player jump through hoops.

 

[The Cardinal]

Urgh... lousy GM, stupid riddle, wasted time...

Advice: kill the GM and take her stuff!

 

[ceratitis]

Urgh... lousy GM, stupid riddle, wasted time...

Advice: kill the GM and take her stuff!

second that... and bury her body in the sand

 

[Voadam]

Now that I think about it, I never would have gotten it myself, because I didn't realize the Bible even had an index.

Ditto. My first thought was that there was a hollowed out middle in the books with hidden physical keys.

Puzzle scenarios should generally have some possible resolution besides solve it or die. Or did this turn into a prelude to a Wraith game?