[A little but not a lot OT] Marvel vs DC

[GiantInThePlayground]

An interesting topic. Here's my view:

DC essentially invented superheroes. They are the creator of the genre, and still publish books that are firmly "superhero stories." Most of DC's characters are people that choose to put on a costume and fight bad guys. They are, in a very real way, "genre-traditional." (This shouldn't be taken as a bad thing necessarily; I read a lot of DC books.) If you like the classic superhero format, you'll love DC. If you don't, you'll never like DC. They are the Vorlons of comics.

Marvel rose to prominence by challenging the existing DC comics way of telling stories. They shook the format up and invented new ways of talking about superheroes. Most of Marvel's characters are people who got the shaft one way or the other, and ended up superpowered. They would be what I would call, "genre-redefining." If you like taking things in a new direction from the same-old, same-old, you'll love Marvel. If you liked the old comic book status quo, you'll never like Marvel. They would have to be the Shadows of comics, I suppose.

I think WOTC would definitely be the DC of RPGs. As inheritors of the company that invented the hobby, they are the standard by which others are judged. They continue making products by the same standards; no one would ever call them "edgy," but if you want D&D, you can always turn to them. However, I don't think ANY d20 company would be Marvel; the closest RPG company would be White Wolf. I think the many d20 companies are more like the various Image imprints. There are great ones, and forgettable ones, but none has really risen to challenge the company that spawned the genre yet.

 

[Desdichado]

Rich, that would be true if it were the mid-1960s instead of the mid-2000s right now. Marvel's "genre-redefining" originally happend with the initial run of books like the Fantastic 4 and Spider-man. It's a bit of a stretch to say that they are still the "redefiners" based on that, and I'd argue that they haven't necessarily pushed the boundaries more than DC since then.

 

[GiantInThePlayground]

Well, that's true. However, those roles shaped the companies that exist today. Further, recent innovations on Marvel's part like the Ultimate line and the dropping of the Comics Code prove that their days of iconclasm are not entirely behind them.

Besides, I would argue that gaming is still in it's "Silver Age", and should thus be compared to the comics companies of the appropriate era. Comics have been around a LOT longer than RPGs, after all.

 

[The Serge]

Well, that's true. However, those roles shaped the companies that exist today. Further, recent innovations on Marvel's part like the Ultimate line and the dropping of the Comics Code prove that their days of iconclasm are not entirely behind them.

Besides, I would argue that gaming is still in it's "Silver Age", and should thus be compared to the comics companies of the appropriate era. Comics have been around a LOT longer than RPGs, after all.

Great points. From both posts.

 

[Desdichado]

Well, that's true. However, those roles shaped the companies that exist today. Further, recent innovations on Marvel's part like the Ultimate line and the dropping of the Comics Code prove that their days of iconclasm are not entirely behind them.

That was a bold move to do across the board, but DC published books like Frank Miller's Dark Knight books years ago, that were much darker and innovative (for comic books) than, say, the Ultimates (probably the darkest and arguably the most innovative book in the Marvel line-up these days, I'd argue.) Don't get me wrong, I'm strongly a pro-Marvel vs. DC kinda guy, but I just don't know that Marvel is necessarily "better" or "more innovative" than DC -- these seem like entirely subjective viewpoints that cannot really be demonstrated at all. That said, I love the whole Ultimates series, and think that resetting Spiderman, the X-Men and (essentially) the Avengers as modern books in the modern age without reference to the years and years of continuity baggage was a great thing -- good enough to bring me back into comics after having been a non-collector for about 10 years or so now (well, that and the recent movies, and the M&M game, and the Heroclix game -- my recent re-investment in comics is really a gestalt of a lot of things going on right now) so personally I agree with much of what you are saying. I'm just also saying that DC, and even Image and others did more "modern" innovation than Marvel has done.

Besides, I would argue that gaming is still in it's "Silver Age", and should thus be compared to the comics companies of the appropriate era. Comics have been around a LOT longer than RPGs, after all.

That's a really interesting viewpoint, and with some reflection, I think I agree with you 100%. Gaming really is in kinda a "silver age" in the same sense as comics -- it's not the original Golden Age, but it's really bigger and better than the Golden Age ever was anyway. At least in my opinion.

P.S. And what does that make us for comic books; the Bronze Age? Right now I think comics are way better than they ever were in the Silver Age anyway. From a quality of the art and the printing of the books themselves, to the much better writing and characterization of the characters, to the focus on more "adult" stories and plots, comics are better than they've ever been as well.

 

[Hecabus]

OT on an OT Topic

Has anyone included characters based on comic book characters in their campaigns?

In my current campaign we have a Kitty Pride and Lockheed pairing and we have had a character based on Longshot in a previous campaign.

Lockheed is a psuedodragon fire-based sorceror (no see invisible) and Kitty Pride is a Psionic Warrior with Incorporeal (3rd level power) and a modified personal Air Walk (2nd level, 1 person only, 1/2 speed).

Here are some other superpowered ideas:

X-men Wolverine = Dwarven Barbarian/Pyschic Warrior w/ Trigger Cell Adjustment or go with 1/2 Troll Dwarf
Psylocke = Soul Knife (Gee that was simple)
Cyclops = Psion w/Concussion Powers
Beast = Half-Fiendish Half-Ogre Rogue/Monk
Archangel = Half-Celestial fighter
Colossus = Psion/Fighter with Iron body or Awakened Iron Golem
Longshot = Rogue/Psychic Warrior w/Fate of One specialized in Shurikens
Nightcrawler = Nomad/Rogue/Duellist w/Teleport and Dimension Strike
Shadowcat = Psi Warrior w/ Incorpreal power
Emma Frost = Psion Telepath w/Iron Body
Jean Grey = Telekinetic/Telepathy Psion
Juggernaut = Fighter w/Stone Body or Epic-Level Dreadnought
Mystique = Doppleganger
Professor X = Clairsentant Psion
Storm = Elemental Savant Air, Iceman = Cold Elemental Savant

Other Marvel Super Heroes
Incredible Hulk = Barbarian w/ Painful Injury (+2 Str per 50 points of damage done)
Captain America = Paladin/Warmaster w/Shield feats
Daredevil = Monk or Psi Warrior w/Blindsight Chain or See/Feel/Hear Light
Black Cat = Bestow Curse
Elektra = Monk/Ninja
Human Torch = Elemental Savant
Invisible Woman = Mage w/ Force and Invisibility focus
Iron Man = Tinker Gnome cleric of Gond
Thing = Fighter w/Stone Skin and Stone Body
Riptide = Air Elemental Shuriken Master w/Gloves of Wounding (each shuriken causes wounding).

DC Super Heroes
Green Lantern = Psion/Constructor with TK and Concussion
Batman = Human Rogue
Green Arrow = Arcane Archer
Atom = Psion w/Improved Reduce
Flash = Psionic Warrior w/Speed of Thoughts
Solomon Grundy = Levelled Awakened Large or Huge Zombie Obsidian = Umbral Creature w/Darkness Powers
Hawkman = Half-Celestial Fighter

If nothing else these make fun creative excercises. Any other suggestiongs?

 

[Olive]

the DC bashing is pretty unfair. as someone said above, DC (mostly through vertigo, but the real ground breakers of this were pre that imprint) has been publishing fairly edgy adult stuff for a real long time. They publish some rubbish too, but they also allowed some messing with some pretty core titles (miller's batman stuff and to a lesser degree Moore's Swamp Thing). They got a lot of great stuff from the UK to a larger audience (anything early of Moore's) and have published some great stuff since then (early invisables, transmet, and preacher was fun too...)

so this idea of DC being a supers publisher is pretty silly. What have marvel done that compares to the above?

 

[GiantInThePlayground]

Alias.

Anyway, what I said about DC was meant to be positive. I <i>love</i> that DC remembers its past. All of my favorite DC books are strongly tied to Golden Age characters, like JSA and the late, much-lamented Starman.

 

[Mortaneus]

I like DC more than Marvel for two simple reasons.

The Sandman and the Watchmen.

 

[stevelabny]

when arguing DC vs Marvel
i took the DC Universe vs the Marvel Universe argument

Vertigo (or epic) and non-universe books didn't come into play at all. And I refuse to read the Ultimate books on principal so neither did they.

And although the main DC heroes were created in the Golden Age (the 40s), they were all reborn or revisioned during the Silver Age. (all the characters except Bats and Supes were new incarnations of the characters, new guy in the Flash suit, new guy in the Green Lantern suit, etc) So Marvel and DC have the same 40 year continuity. With Crisis and Zero Hour, DC actually ret-conned their entire universe and change their history to be only TEN years. Marvel changes old continuity on the fly when characters get too told but has never has a complete RESET button hit, so in theory MARVEL has the more complicated, convoluted continuity.

But don't get me started, I actually think that superheroes should get old and die like everyone else.

As for sales, Marvel sells more not only because they have more titles, but simply that they will jump on a trend and beat it into the ground sooner than DC will. When "dark" comics became the trend...the Punisher was given a title..and another...and another untilt the market was glutted and they all got cancelled, but for the first few years, they sold a lot of Punsiher.

I am by no means DC bashing. I like some DC titles. But DC has two problems. Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern and in his own weird way Batman are all grossly over-powered.
The Justice League was a far better title when it had none of them but instead Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Fire, Ice and Guy "not really a Green Lantern" Gardner (see avatar). Just the same way that the Avengers are better when Thor the god, Iron Man the living weapon and Captain America the living pep talk arent all around.

Marvel "created" flawed less powerful heroes as the norm, and one other important creation the non-origin story that is MUTANTS. When origins started to get too ridiculous, even King of Camp himself Stan Lee knew he better invent an out. I was BORN this way. Even DC had to eventually steal this simple idea and give everyone a Meta-gene. (that gets activated with stupid origins, random occurence or ALIENS that suck it out your neck, yay)

DC's later innovations were "dark" comics, which are usually over-rated or just outright poor and "mature" comics which are a complete and total mixed bag. For every hit that Veritgo has (Sandman, Preacher, and select runs of Animal Man and Hellblazer) there are 10 Vertigo titles that bomb. Many of the titles are just pretentious and for all the supposed good of comics FOR adults... DC has marketed Vertigo so poorly to mainstream America that it has had NO impact on the market.

Wait, DC hasn't marketed anything to the mainstream. Neither has Marvel for that matter. An entire industry that tries to survive without advertising? How amusing. I'll shut up now before I get angry again.

steve