[A little but not a lot OT] Marvel vs DC

[Sulimo]

I am by no means DC bashing. I like some DC titles. But DC has two problems. Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern and in his own weird way Batman are all grossly over-powered.
The Justice League was a far better title when it had none of them but instead Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Fire, Ice and Guy "not really a Green Lantern" Gardner (see avatar). Just the same way that the Avengers are better when Thor the god, Iron Man the living weapon and Captain America the living pep talk arent all around.

Thats one opinion. I only got into JLA because it had the main players of the DCverse in it...and up until the current creative team it has been great.

Same with Avengers. I've enjoyed it most when at least some of the core..be it Thor, Iron Man or The Hulk are in it.

Wait, DC hasn't marketed anything to the mainstream. Neither has Marvel for that matter. An entire industry that tries to survive without advertising? How amusing. I'll shut up now before I get angry again.

Of course not, the mainstream doesn't read comics (at least in the US)...or even read period.

As for DC vs Marvel...whilst I was a Marvel Zombie once, I stopped reading Marvel quite some time ago...now only reading Amazing Spiderman, Thor and Avengers....and wouldnt touch the Ultimate line with a barge pole whilst at teh same time I've been picking up more and more DC product.

As for equating comic companies to roleplaying ones...looking at Marvel some of their tactics in Marketing (things like Rawhide Kid and other 'controversies') remind me of Avalanche Press and their cheesecake marketing.

EDIT: corrected my brainfart regarding the cheesecake marketing of Avalanche Press (where for some reason I wrote Green Ronin).

 

[Teflon Billy]

...the late, much-lamented Starman.

Man...Starman was an awesome comic.

 

[Teflon Billy]

Why all the hate for The Ultimates?

People have mentioned avoiding them "on prociple", and not touching the with a ten foot pole.

I've read The Ultimates and Ultimate War and thought they were both top notch stuff (particularly the former).

 

[Oni]

I'll second the above, I'm not much of a Marvel fan, but the couple issues of the Ultimates I've had a chance to read were really cool.

 

[Sulimo]

Why all the hate for The Ultimates?

People have mentioned avoiding them "on prociple", and not touching the with a ten foot pole.

I've read The Ultimates and Ultimate War and thought they were both top notch stuff (particularly the former).

At least in my case it's not on principle. I've read the first 4-5 issues of Ultimates, Ultimate Spiderman and Ultimate X-Men. And I didnt like any of them.

I'd much rather see Marvel spend cash puting out new stuff rather than retelling old tales.

Ultimates particularly rubbed me the wrong way which what appeared to be Authority dressed up as Avengers.

That said, I did read and like the Ultimate Daredevil/Elektra mini.

 

[stevelabny]

ok...you asked for it:

WHY STEVE WON'T READ ANY ULTIMATE MARVEL:
(the short version)

lessee, as stated, i have over 15,000 comics. we'll estimate and say at least 9,000 of those are marvel.

with the exception of the clearly titled WHAT IF...? , every single one of those 9,000 comics takes place in the same universe.
the same place i've been reading about for years. has continuity been perfect? no. but not as awful as DCs or as it could be.
are all the characters perfect? nope. have all the stories that have been told been perfect? of course not.

the purpose of the ULTIMATE UNIVERSE as clearly stated by Marvel has been to bring new readers to comics by updating classic characters like Spider-Man and the X-Men to modern times. as if their origins were in the year 2000 instead of the 1960. without all the "confusing, convoluted backstory that nobody can follow". they use big-name writers and artists to "fix" the problems in the regular marvel universe titles.

ok. this is WRONG WRONG WRONG on so many levels.

1> instead of spending money on big name writers and creators to "fix" perceived problems in an alternate universe... WHY NOT JUST HIRE THEM FOR THE REGULAR BOOKS?

2> the answer to the question if of course, that in the Ultimate Universe they can do whatever they want, change characters 100%, kill them and do cool "dark" things with them. they dont want to do this in the "regular" books because they have fallen into the trap of not changing their "icons". being afraid of change kills.

3> the history of the marvel universe is RICH and INTERESTING not confusing and convoluted. as soon as you throw out the time discrepencies of "shouldnt they all be 50something if they were teens in the 60s". (i diagree with not aging them, but thats a whole nother rant) I didnt start reading comics in the 60s, but the 80s. When I first picked up a copy of Avengers and X-Men, i didnt say "these guys are cool, but they have a long history so i cant be bothered" , NO, i said "WOW, THESE GUYS ARE SOOOO COOL THAT I WILL READ EVERY MONTH, AND FIND BACK ISSUES SO I CAN READ ABOUT THEIR OLD ADVENTURES TOO" this is the pull of comics, and what keeps comic stores in business, and you cant have a business without comic stores.

4> the real puzzler is the logic. if the regular marvel universes history is confusing and convoluted what will they do in 5 years when the ultimate universe's history us just as detailed (translation: confusing and convoluted) ???? will they make the MORE ULTIMATE UNIVERSE? or the ULTIMATER-ER UNIVERSE? or the ULTIMATE TO THE INFINITE POWER UNIVERSE? how many of these will be published at the same time?

5> the other problem with the logic is even worse. so youre 10 years old and just saw the SPIDER-MAN movie. wow, this guy is cool. you beg mom and dad to take you to the comic store (i know, you have no way of knowing that comic books or comic stores exist, but we'll pretend the local store was smart enough to send a young customer to stand in front of the movie theatre all weekend with business cards, flyers, coupons and free comics in exchange for a nice-sized customer credit even though NONE of the stores in nyc did this.) anywho, you go to the comic book store and ask for SPIDER-MAN comics. you are instantly asked "do u want regular marvel universe amazing spider-man and peter parker spider-man? or ultimate spider-man?" ***THIS*** is more confusing to new fans than anything else. Nobody who hasn't been reading comics understands the difference.

5a> of course, why do i expect logic? in the regular marvel universe, it was decide that no kids could relate to Spider-man anymore because Peter Parker was married, awaiting a child, his aunt was dead after admititing she knew he was Spider-man all along and his major villian was long dead, and replaced by his son who also died (but remember, spidey has the biggest and best rogue's gallery of ANY hero, so you don't need this guy)
so instead, they kidnapped his kid from the hospital during birth and as far as everyone is concerned the kid is dead. his wife left him. and it was revealed that his aunt who died wasn't really his aunt, but a paid professional actress with plastic surgery to look exactly like his aunt and she was hired by the original Green Goblin who hasnt really been dead all this time, but living in Europe and watching his son be Green Goblin and didn't start plotting his major revenege until his son died too. So he wanted Peter to lose his kid, his wife, his aunt and then come fight him.

if you think this is absolutely ridiculous and why you dont read comics you are 100% right. the only reason the story is THIS stupid is because they wanted to wipe out his marriage, his kid, Aunt May's death and the Green Goblin's death. Because even those modern kids can't relate to a married superhero with a kid, a dead aunt and no guy with a green goblin suit, THEY CAN RELATE TO A DIVORCED SUPERHERO WITH A LIVE AUNT, A DEAD KID, AND A GUY WITH A GREEN GOBLIN SUIT AS LONG AS HE DOESNT TALK ABOUT HIS WIFE, HIS DEAD KID, THE FACT THAT HIS AUNT JUST GOT BACK FROM BEING KIDNAPPED FROM A YEAR AND HE BURIED SOMEONE WHO LOOKED JUST LIKE HER. AGH!

6> if the ultimate universe is too sucessful. they will stop publishing comics in the regular marvel universe and make everything ultimate. and theres NO WAY that I'm going to allow that to happen

7> On one of the comic book message boards, John Byrne bashed me for my BOYCOTT THE ULTIMATE UNIVERSE post as soon as they were originally announced. HE rattled on, putting words in my mouth, being a hypocrite, and calling me the "worst kind of comic book fan". i told him that if guys who spend 250.00 on comics every month are the worst kind of comic book fan, he better hope he doesnt get rid of the few of us that are left, because the whole industry would collapse. while i was there, i told him i'd return to him every comic from my collection that he wrote if he gave me my money back, but he didnt take me up on my offer. I'm not sure why it is, but almost every comic book professional who makes public statements or i've had interactions with is A COMPLETE JERK WITH NO SOCIAL SKILLS.

For all these reasons and more, I have NEVER bought an Ultimate title.
Last year, on FREE COMIC BOOK DAY, I did get a free FCBD-version of Ultimate Spider-Man #1. I read it. And it was awful.
I have NO idea why anyone bought issue 2 to see if it got better, thats how bad it was.

you say you never heard of FREE COMIC BOOK DAY?
(wouldnt be surprised, few did)

last year, the Saturday the day after Spidey's release was FREE COMIC BOOK DAY. all the major companies and some of the indies gave out FREE COMIC BOOKS. NO CATCH.

theyre doing it again this year too... the day after X2 comes out.

I apologize to anyone who actually read this whole thing, blame it on Billy and Oni for asking

 

[Pramas]

As for equating comic companies to roleplaying ones...looking at Marvel some of their tactics in Marketing (things like Rawhide Kid and other 'controversies') remind me of Green Ronin and their cheesecake marketing.

Cheesecake? Perhaps you have us confused with another company.

If not, please explain what you mean.

 

[Sulimo]

Cheesecake? Perhaps you have us confused with another company.

If not, please explain what you mean.

Whoa...huge brainfart there. I wonder how I meant Avalanche Press, but wrote Green Ronin.

 

[Korin Tempest]

Just thought I'd chime in with something kind of amusing.. Forgotten Realms has been continually compared as the DC of d20 rpgs.... well, I'm not sure how many are aware, but back in the 80's, DC published a Forgotten Realms comic book... slightly ironic...

 

[Richards]

Okay, here's my input on the subject. Actually, I'm going to change the parameters a little and not talk about different d20 publishers, but rather about the changes between editions.

I see the change from AD&D 1st Edition to 2nd Edition as being very much like how Marvel works. By that, I mean they were concerned about the past continuity. Of the two main comics companies, I've always seen Marvel as being far more concerned about maintaining the continuity of their universe. Sure, they've made changes, but they've usually made an effort to incorporate the changes into what's already been established. Plus, they keep meticulous track of their past history! There have been, over the years, several versions of The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, with encyclopedia-type entries on the main characters of their universe. You can look up, say, Magneto, and the fact that he was once age-regressed into a baby, and then later regained his true age and became a "good guy" for awhile - it's all there, documented.

Most of the changes between 1st and 2nd Edition AD&D were mostly cosmetic. Okay, we're not going to call them devils and demons anymore, now they're tanar'ri and baatezu - but really, nothing's changed. As far as significant changes to the editions - the fact that there are no longer assassin or monk player characters, for instance - these are explained away (at least in the Forgotten Realms): there's this Time of Troubles, see, and the Gods are trapped on the Prime Material Plane, and some of the evil gods suck up the life forces of the assassins and monks, so they're all killed and that's why there aren't any more of those character classes in the world. So 2nd Edition goes out of its way to "hold on" to the continuity that's been established in 1st Edition. The same monsters exist in the world, and for the most part they look the way they've always looked.

In the change from 2nd Edition to 3E, however, a completely different approach was used. Rather than trying to seamlessly integrate campaigns over from one edition to the other, they just scrapped everything and started over from scratch. In fact, there were several adventures at the end of 2nd Edition specifically designed to end your campaigns with a bang so you could start over with a clean slate for 3E. This, to me, is more of a "DC approach."

DC seems to me to have never been all that concerned with what has gone before. Many times a long-running title will just start over from scratch and redo the whole origin of its main character. You might read several hundred issues of a Superman title, and then a new creative team takes over and boom, we're right back to baby Kal-El crashlanding in the Kents' farm. Over the next few issues, we see a "new" first meeting between superman and Lex Luthor, a 'new" first meeting with Brainiac, etc. - all of the past history now never happened. Wonder Woman goes from being a mortal Amazon one day to having been sculpted from clay and brought to life as a goddess by the Greek pantheon the next. Batman and Catwoman are lovers who know each others' secret identities one day, and the next: nope, that never happened.

With the change to 3E, there was very little continuity from previous editions. 3E brought a "new look" to everything from armor to the appearances of traditional monsters, and now not only was everything different, it had now "always been that way."

Oddly enough, Marvel and DC in recent years have both dropped their own "continuity" views and tried out the other side of the fence. Marvel had the X-Men super-enemy Onslaught kill off the Avengers and the Fantastic Four so they could be "reborn" in new titles, effectively restarting and updating their origins for a 12 or 13 issue miniseries, then restarted them again in new editions of their comic titles starting over again with a new issue #1. Peter Parker's spider-bite origin is now suddenly tied in to Doctor Octopus' (thanks to John Byrne, who can't seem to resist changing things about established origins whenever he gets the chance). Of course, now it seems like they're regretting that: they've restablished the characters into normal Marvel Universe continuity, and they even seem to be regretting the whole "renumbering from issue #1" scheme, as Marvel Comics now include the issue number from the restart as well as the issue number they would have been at if they hadn't restarted the numbering scheme. Why? I think they realized they were approaching some landmark issue numbers had they not reset the clock, so to speak.

DC, on the other hand, who never really seemed to care all that much for continuity, did their whole "Crisis on Infinite Earths" crossover, wherein many multiple alternate universes were being destroyed and bits and pieces of universes were "cobbled together" to create the one, true DC Universe from which all DC comics would thereafter come from. In this universe, Superboy never was part of the Legion of Superheroes in the far future, there no longer was a Supergirl or Barry Allen Flash, etc. However, after several years of this "Marvel-like" approach, DC came out with a bunch of crossover titles involving characters from the possible future of Kingdom Come, and the end of that was they "unlocked" all of the past universes, making stories from "previously scrapped continuities" possible once again. As to whether or not the DC Universe is once again at its former "reboot when necessary" mode I couldn't say, as most of my superhero comics are from the Marvel side of things these days.

Anyway, that's my take on things, in a much more long-winded fashion than I had intended.

Johnathan