AD&D 1E A Long Thread about the Weapon's vs. AC Table

[jolt]

For the time when we used the table, we removed shields from the equation. We felt that the shield didn't change the "type" of armor at all.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I'm curious what you think the benefit to gameplay is. That it encourages more variation in weapon choices? That it creates interesting tactical choices in combat? Or is it just "more realistic" and that in itself is a good thing?

 

[Celebrim]

I'm curious what you think the benefit to gameplay is. That it encourages more variation in weapon choices? That it creates interesting tactical choices in combat? Or is it just "more realistic" and that in itself is a good thing?

If you'd asked me circa 1990 I probably would have said that being more realistic was in itself a good thing, but I probably wouldn't have understood what I meant by "realistic" at the time.

Now I'd say that what I meant by that is that reality is messy and complex and filled with tradeoffs, and that was inherently more interesting than just look down a list and picking the thing that gave you the most damage versus large sized creatures. It's also more interesting as a world to GM, because you have a reason why you might give the BBEG a mace rather than a longsword and he's not necessarily being sub-optimal by taking a mace. There is more to the choice than just flavor.

The first time someone switches from a sword to a pick or flail because the smaller damage dice is mitigated by better chance to hit, I personally feel it's worth it for game play, above and beyond the historian nerds in me going, "In the real world, real knights carried maces and flails as well as swords." Sure, I like the aesthetics of a game world that looks like I imagine the past to look like, but I do think there is more to it than that.

UPDATE: Thinking more on this, it feels like, "Why is everyone talking so much about the trial by combat in "Knight of the Seven Kingdoms?" Is it just "more realistic" and that in itself is a good thing?"

And the answer is of course, "No. It's a fantasy story. The "realism" such as it is is not the point. The point is that it requires someone with a very high understanding of historical European martial arts and weaponry to create the sort of varied and rich cinematography that went into that scene, and that felt really fresh to the audience because it was a lot more satisfying than just the hero swings his hero sword and we are supposed to imagine from the stunt doubles response that he just chopped through plate armor somehow."

And my answer to your question is, "This is part of a comprehensive approach to combat that forces tactical choices on the players and GM alike, so that if the fighter is beset by wild dogs I as the GM have to come with some believable way those dogs are still a threat to a juggernaut clad in steel beyond just saying, "roll... 16, it's a hit, take roll 3 points of damage."

 

[Celebrim]

Some of Monster Manual I worked out as "to hit" tables applying the above assumptions. I may do more if people are interested and ask questions, or if the project continues to prove instructional to myself.

Monster

Weapon Name

Damage

Weapon Type

10​

9​

8​

7​

6​

5​

4​

3​

2​

1​

0​

Aerial Servant

Slam

4-16

Bardiche

1​

1​

1​

1​

3​

5​

6​

8​

9​

11​

13​

Ankeg

Mandibles

3-18

Sword, Broad

5​

7​

8​

9​

11​

12​

14​

16​

18​

20​

22​

Ankeg

Mandibles

3-18

Sword, Broad

4​

6​

7​

8​

10​

11​

13​

15​

17​

19​

21​

Ankeg

Mandibles

3-18

Sword, Broad

4​

6​

7​

8​

10​

11​

13​

15​

17​

19​

21​

Ankeg

Mandibles

3-18

Sword, Broad

3​

5​

6​

7​

9​

10​

12​

14​

16​

18​

20​

Ant, Giant

Mandibles

1-6

Dagger

4​

7​

8​

10​

11​

14​

15​

17​

18​

20​

21​

Ape, Gorilla

Slam

1-3

Club

5​

7​

8​

10​

11​

13​

15​

17​

18​

20​

22​

Bite

1-6

Dagger

3​

6​

7​

9​

10​

13​

14​

16​

17​

19​

20​

Improvised Club

1-6+7

Club

9​

11​

12​

14​

15​

17​

19​

21​

22​

24​

26​

Thrown Rock

1-2+4

Rock, Large

11​

12​

14​

15​

16​

18​

20​

22​

24​

26​

29​

Ape, Carnivorous

Slam

1-4

Club

5​

7​

8​

10​

11​

13​

15​

17​

18​

20​

22​

Bite

1-8

Dagger

3​

6​

7​

9​

10​

13​

14​

16​

17​

19​

20​

Improvised Club

9-14

Club

8​

10​

11​

13​

14​

16​

18​

20​

21​

23​

25​

Thrown Rock

5-6

Rock

11​

12​

14​

15​

16​

18​

20​

23​

25​

27​

29​

Axebeak

Talons

1-3

Dagger

4​

7​

8​

10​

11​

14​

15​

17​

18​

20​

21​

Beak

2-8

Axe, Battle

5​

7​

8​

10​

11​

13​

14​

16​

17​

19​

20​

Baboon

Bite

1-4

Dagger

5​

8​

9​

11​

12​

15​

16​

18​

19​

21​

22​

Badger

Claw

1-2

Knife

5​

8​

9​

11​

13​

15​

17​

19​

21​

22​

24​

Bite

1-3

Fist or Open Hand

6​

8​

11​

12​

13​

14​

17​

20​

23​

25​

27​

Badger, Giant

Claw

1-3

Dagger

4​

7​

8​

10​

11​

14​

15​

17​

18​

20​

21​

Bite

1-6

Dagger

4​

7​

8​

10​

11​

14​

15​

17​

18​

20​

21​

Baluchitherium

Stomp

5-20

Flail, Footman's

2​

1​

2​

3​

4​

4​

6​

7​

7​

7​

8​

Baracuda

Bite

3-18

Fist or Open Hand

7​

9​

12​

13​

14​

15​

18​

21​

24​

26​

28​

Baracuda

Bite

3-18

Knife

4​

7​

8​

10​

12​

14​

16​

18​

20​

21​

23​

Baracuda

Bite

3-18

Dagger

4​

7​

8​

10​

11​

14​

15​

17​

18​

20​

21​

Basilisk

Bite

1-10

Dagger

2​

5​

6​

8​

9​

12​

13​

15​

16​

18​

19​

Bear, Black

Claw

1-3

Club

5​

7​

8​

10​

11​

13​

15​

17​

18​

20​

22​

Bite

1-6

Dagger

3​

6​

7​

9​

10​

13​

14​

16​

17​

19​

20​

Bear, Grizzly

Claw

1-6

Club

4​

6​

7​

9​

10​

12​

14​

16​

17​

19​

21​

Bite

1-8

Dagger

2​

5​

6​

8​

9​

12​

13​

15​

16​

18​

19​

Bear, Cave

Claw

1-6

Club

4​

6​

7​

9​

10​

12​

14​

16​

17​

19​

21​

Bite

1-12

Dagger

2​

5​

6​

8​

9​

12​

13​

15​

16​

18​

19​

Beaver, Giant

Bite

4-16

Halberd

6​

6​

7​

7​

8​

9​

11​

12​

13​

14​

15​

Beatle, Giant Bombadier

Bite

2-12

Sword, Khopesh

5​

7​

8​

10​

11​

13​

15​

18​

20​

22​

24​

Beatle, Giant Boring

Bite

5-20

Bardiche

7​

7​

7​

7​

9​

11​

12​

14​

15​

17​

19​

Beatle, Giant Fire

Bite

5-20

Dagger

5​

8​

9​

11​

12​

15​

16​

18​

19​

21​

22​

Beatle, Giant Rhinoceros

Gore

2-16

Spear

2​

3​

4​

5​

6​

8​

9​

10​

12​

13​

14​

Bite

3-18

Bardiche

3​

3​

3​

3​

5​

7​

8​

10​

11​

13​

15​

Beetle, Giant Stag

Gore

1-10

Spear

5​

6​

7​

8​

9​

11​

12​

13​

15​

16​

17​

Bite

4-16

Bardiche

6​

6​

6​

6​

8​

10​

11​

13​

14​

16​

18​

Beetle, Giant Water

Bite

3-18

Sword, Broad

4​

6​

7​

8​

10​

11​

13​

15​

17​

19​

21​

Beholder (10HD)

Bite

2-8

Sword, Khopesh

1​

3​

4​

6​

7​

9​

11​

14​

16​

18​

20​

Beholder (12HD)

Bite

2-8

Sword, Khopesh

0​

2​

3​

5​

6​

8​

10​

13​

15​

17​

19​

Beholder (14HD)

Bite

2-8

Sword, Khopesh

-1​

1​

2​

4​

5​

7​

9​

12​

14​

16​

18​

Beholder (16HD)

Bite

2-8

Sword, Khopesh

-2​

0​

1​

3​

4​

6​

8​

11​

13​

15​

17​

Black pudding

Slam

3-24

Mace, Horseman's

3​

4​

5​

6​

7​

8​

8​

9​

10​

10​

11​

Blink Dog

Bite

1-6

Knife

3​

6​

7​

9​

11​

13​

15​

17​

19​

20​

22​

Boar, Wild

Gore

1-6

Dagger

3​

6​

7​

9​

10​

13​

14​

16​

17​

19​

20​

Boar, Giant

Gore

1-6

Dagger

2​

5​

6​

8​

9​

12​

13​

15​

16​

18​

19​

Boar, Warthog

Gore

1-6

Dagger

4​

7​

8​

10​

11​

14​

15​

17​

18​

20​

21​

Brownie

Dagger

1-4

Dagger

9​

12​

13​

15​

16​

19​

20​

22​

23​

25​

25​

Thrown Dagger

1-4

Dagger (Thrown)

7​

9​

10​

12​

13​

15​

17​

19​

21​

23​

24​

Buffalo

Stomp

1-8

Club

5​

7​

8​

10​

11​

13​

15​

17​

18​

20​

22​

Gore

3-18

Mace, Footman's

7​

6​

8​

9​

10​

11​

11​

12​

13​

13​

14​

Bugbear

Morningstar

2-8

Morning Star

5​

6​

8​

9​

10​

11​

12​

13​

15​

16​

17​

Spear

1-6

Spear

7​

8​

9​

10​

11​

13​

14​

15​

17​

18​

19​

Spear (Thown)

1-6

Spear (Thrown)

7​

8​

9​

10​

12​

14​

15​

17​

18​

20​

21​

Hand Axe

1-6

Axe, Hand

6​

7​

8​

10​

11​

13​

14​

16​

18​

20​

22​

Hand Axe (Thrown)

1-6

Axe, Hand (Thrown)

6​

8​

9​

10​

12​

13​

15​

17​

19​

21​

23​

Battle Axe

1-8

Axe, Battle

5​

7​

8​

10​

11​

13​

14​

16​

17​

19​

20​

Mace

2-7

Mace, Footman's

8​

7​

9​

10​

11​

12​

12​

13​

14​

14​

15​

Hammer

2-5

Hammer

7​

8​

9​

10​

11​

11​

13​

13​

15​

16​

17​

Hammer (Thrown)

2-5

Hammer (Thrown)

6​

8​

9​

10​

11​

12​

13​

15​

17​

19​

21​

Bastard Sword

1-10

Sword, Bastard

7​

7​

8​

9​

10​

11​

12​

14​

15​

16​

17​

Bastard Sword (One Handed)

1-8

Sword, Long

5​

7​

9​

10​

11​

12​

13​

15​

17​

19​

21​

Bugbear, Leader

Morningstar

3-9

Morning Star

4​

5​

7​

8​

9​

10​

11​

12​

14​

15​

16​

Spear

2-7

Spear

6​

7​

8​

9​

10​

12​

13​

14​

16​

17​

18​

Spear (Thown)

2-7

Spear (Thrown)

6​

7​

8​

9​

11​

13​

14​

16​

17​

19​

20​

Hand Axe

2-7

Axe, Hand

5​

6​

7​

9​

10​

12​

13​

15​

17​

19​

21​

Hand Axe (Thrown)

2-7

Axe, Hand (Thrown)

5​

7​

8​

9​

11​

12​

14​

16​

18​

20​

22​

Battle Axe

2-9

Axe, Battle

4​

6​

7​

9​

10​

12​

13​

15​

16​

18​

19​

Mace

3-8

Mace, Footman's

7​

6​

8​

9​

10​

11​

11​

12​

13​

13​

14​

Hammer

3-6

Hammer

6​

7​

8​

9​

10​

10​

12​

12​

14​

15​

16​

Hammer (Thrown)

3-6

Hammer (Thrown)

5​

7​

8​

9​

10​

11​

12​

14​

16​

18​

20​

Bastard Sword

2-11

Sword, Bastard

6​

6​

7​

8​

9​

10​

11​

13​

14​

15​

16​

Bastard Sword (One Handed)

2-9

Sword, Long

4​

6​

8​

9​

10​

11​

12​

14​

16​

18​

20​

Bugbear, Chieftain

Morningstar

4-10

Morning Star

3​

4​

6​

7​

8​

9​

10​

11​

13​

14​

15​

Spear

3-8

Spear

5​

6​

7​

8​

9​

11​

12​

13​

15​

16​

17​

Spear (Thown)

3-8

Spear (Thrown)

6​

7​

8​

9​

11​

13​

14​

16​

17​

19​

20​

Hand Axe

3-8

Axe, Hand

4​

5​

6​

8​

9​

11​

12​

14​

16​

18​

20​

Hand Axe (Thrown)

3-8

Axe, Hand (Thrown)

5​

7​

8​

9​

11​

12​

14​

16​

18​

20​

22​

Battle Axe

3-10

Axe, Battle

3​

5​

6​

8​

9​

11​

12​

14​

15​

17​

18​

Mace

4-9

Mace, Footman's

6​

5​

7​

8​

9​

10​

10​

11​

12​

12​

13​

Hammer

4-7

Hammer

5​

6​

7​

8​

9​

9​

11​

11​

13​

14​

15​

Hammer (Thrown)

4-7

Hammer (Thrown)

5​

7​

8​

9​

10​

11​

12​

14​

16​

18​

20​

Bastard Sword

3-12

Sword, Bastard

5​

5​

6​

7​

8​

9​

10​

12​

13​

14​

15​

Bastard Sword (One Handed)

3-10

Sword, Long

3​

5​

7​

8​

9​

10​

11​

13​

15​

17​

19​

Bulette

Bite

4-48

Sword, Two-handed

4​

4​

3​

4​

5​

7​

8​

10​

11​

13​

14​

Claw

3-18

Spear

4​

5​

6​

7​

8​

10​

11​

12​

14​

15​

16​

Bull

Stomp

1-6

Club

5​

7​

8​

10​

11​

13​

15​

17​

18​

20​

22​

Gore

3-12

Mace, Footman's

7​

6​

8​

9​

10​

11​

11​

12​

13​

13​

14​

Camel

Bite

1-4

Club

6​

8​

9​

11​

12​

14​

16​

18​

19​

21​

23​

Carrion Crawler

Tentacle

0

Bo stick

5​

8​

8​

10​

12​

14​

17​

20​

23​

25​

27​

Catoblepas

Tail

1-6

Flail, Horseman's

5​

5​

6​

7​

9​

10​

11​

12​

13​

14​

15​

Cattle, Wild

Stomp

1-4

Club

6​

8​

9​

11​

12​

14​

16​

18​

19​

21​

23​

Centaur

Kick

1-6

Club

5​

7​

8​

10​

11​

13​

15​

17​

18​

20​

22​

Morningstar

2-8

Morning Star

4​

5​

7​

8​

9​

10​

11​

12​

14​

15​

16​

Bow

1-6

Bow, Composite, Long

1​

2​

4​

5​

7​

9​

10​

12​

14​

16​

18​

Lance

2-7

Lance (medium)

6​

7​

8​

9​

9​

10​

11​

12​

14​

15​

17​

Centipede, Giant

Bite

0

Fist or Open Hand

9​

11​

14​

15​

16​

17​

20​

23​

26​

28​

29​

Chimera

Claw

1-4

Club

3​

5​

6​

8​

9​

11​

13​

15​

16​

18​

20​

Lion Bite

2-8

Axe, Battle

2​

4​

5​

7​

8​

10​

11​

13​

14​

16​

17​

Goat Gore

1-4

Morning Star

2​

3​

5​

6​

7​

8​

9​

10​

12​

13​

14​

Dragon Bite

3-12

Axe, Battle

2​

4​

5​

7​

8​

10​

11​

13​

14​

16​

17​

Cockatrice

Bite

1-4

Dagger

3​

6​

7​

9​

10​

13​

14​

16​

17​

19​

20​

Coualt

Bite

1-3

Dagger

1​

4​

5​

7​

8​

11​

12​

14​

15​

17​

18​

Constrict

2-8

Spetum

2​

4​

6​

7​

8​

9​

10​

12​

14​

15​

16​

Crab, Giant

Claw

2-8

Axe, Battle

5​

7​

8​

10​

11​

13​

14​

16​

17​

19​

20​

Crayfish, Giant

Claw

2-12

Axe, Battle

4​

6​

7​

9​

10​

12​

13​

15​

16​

18​

19​

Crocadile

Bite

2-8

Dagger

4​

7​

8​

10​

11​

14​

15​

17​

18​

20​

21​

Tail

1-12

Flail, Horseman's

7​

7​

8​

9​

11​

12​

13​

14​

15​

16​

17​

Crocadile, Giant

Bite

3-18

Morning Star

3​

4​

6​

7​

8​

9​

10​

11​

13​

14​

15​

Tail

2-20

Flail, Footman's

6​

5​

6​

7​

8​

8​

10​

11​

11​

11​

12​

Demon, Demogorgon

Slam

1-6

Flail, Footman's

-4​

-5​

-4​

-3​

-2​

-2​

0​

1​

1​

1​

2​

Tail

0

Flail, Footman's

-4​

-5​

-4​

-3​

-2​

-2​

0​

1​

1​

1​

2​

Improvised Club

11-16

Club

-8​

-6​

-5​

-3​

-2​

0​

2​

4​

5​

7​

9​

Thrown Rock

5-9

Rock, Very Large

-2​

-1​

-1​

0​

0​

1​

2​

4​

5​

6​

8​

Demon, Jubilex

Slam

4-40

Flail, Footman's

0​

-1​

0​

1​

2​

2​

4​

5​

5​

5​

6​

Improvised Club

10-15

Club

-4​

-2​

-1​

1​

2​

4​

6​

8​

9​

11​

13​

Thrown Rock

5-9+1d8 acid

Rock, Very Large

1​

2​

2​

3​

3​

4​

5​

7​

8​

9​

11​

Demon, Manes

Slam

4-40

Dagger

6​

9​

10​

12​

13​

16​

17​

19​

20​

22​

23​

Bite

10-15

Dagger

6​

9​

10​

12​

13​

16​

17​

19​

20​

22​

23​

Demon, Orcus

Wand

13-19

Mace, Footman's

-11​

-12​

-10​

-9​

-8​

-7​

-7​

-6​

-5​

-5​

-4​

Tail

1-6

Flail, Footman's

-4​

-5​

-4​

-3​

-2​

-2​

0​

1​

1​

1​

2​

Fist

3-13

Mace, Footman's

-4​

-5​

-3​

-2​

-1​

0​

0​

1​

2​

2​

3​

Thrown Rock

5-9

Rock, Very Large

-3​

-2​

-2​

-1​

-1​

0​

1​

3​

4​

5​

7​

Demon, Succubus

Slap

1-3

Fist or Open Hand

3​

5​

8​

9​

10​

11​

14​

17​

20​

22​

24​

Dagger

1-4

Dagger

2​

5​

6​

8​

9​

12​

13​

15​

16​

18​

19​

Dagger (Thrown)

1-4

Dagger (Thrown)

4​

6​

7​

9​

10​

12​

14​

16​

18​

20​

22​

Demon, Type I

Bite

1-6

Sword, Short

2​

5​

5​

7​

8​

9​

11​

13​

15​

17​

19​

Claw

1-4

Sword, Short

2​

5​

5​

7​

8​

9​

11​

13​

15​

17​

19​

Kick

1-8

Sword, Broad

2​

4​

5​

6​

8​

9​

11​

13​

15​

17​

19​

Demon, Type II

Bite

4-16

Scimitar

1​

4​

5​

7​

8​

10​

12​

13​

15​

16​

18​

Claw

1-3

Knife

1​

4​

5​

7​

9​

11​

13​

15​

17​

18​

20​

Demon, Type III

Talons

2-12

Spear

3​

4​

5​

6​

7​

9​

10​

11​

13​

14​

15​

Claw

1-3

Knife

0​

3​

4​

6​

8​

10​

12​

14​

16​

17​

19​

Bite

2-5

Club

2​

4​

5​

7​

8​

10​

12​

14​

15​

17​

19​

Demon, Type IV

Fist

1-4

Mace, Horseman's

1​

2​

3​

4​

5​

6​

6​

7​

8​

8​

9​

Bite

2-8

Club

0​

2​

3​

5​

6​

8​

10​

12​

13​

15​

17​

Improvised Club

7-13

Club

-1​

1​

2​

4​

5​

7​

9​

11​

12​

14​

16​

Thrown Rock

5-9

Rock, Large

3​

4​

6​

7​

8​

10​

12​

14​

16​

18​

21​

Demon, Type V

Constrict

5-9

Spetum

2​

4​

6​

7​

8​

9​

10​

12​

14​

15​

16​

Scimitar

1-8

Scimitar

1​

4​

5​

7​

8​

10​

12​

13​

15​

16​

18​

Falchion

2-8

Sword, Falchion

4​

5​

5​

6​

7​

8​

10​

12​

14​

15​

17​

Mace

2-7

Mace, Horseman's

4​

5​

6​

7​

8​

9​

9​

10​

11​

11​

12​

Longsword

1-8

Sword, Long

2​

4​

6​

7​

8​

9​

10​

12​

14​

16​

18​

Javelin

1-6

Javelin (Thrown)

-1​

1​

1​

3​

5​

7​

9​

11​

13​

15​

17​

Demon, Type VI

Sword

9-20

Sword, Two-handed

0​

0​

-1​

0​

1​

3​

4​

6​

7​

9​

10​

Whip

8-9

Whip

-2​

2​

2​

5​

7​

10​

13​

16​

19​

22​

25​

Demon, Yeenoghu

Flail

3=18

Flail, Horseman's

-10​

-10​

-9​

-8​

-6​

-5​

-4​

-3​

-2​

-1​

0​

Javelin

9-15

Javelin (Thrown)

0​

2​

2​

4​

6​

8​

10​

12​

14​

16​

18​

Devil, Asmodeus

Rod

14-17

Mace, Horseman's

-11​

-10​

-9​

-8​

-7​

-6​

-6​

-5​

-4​

-4​

-3​

Devil, Baalzebul

Bite

2-12

Scimitar

-8​

-5​

-4​

-2​

-1​

1​

3​

4​

6​

7​

9​

Military Fork

11-20

Fork, Military

-11​

-9​

-9​

-8​

-6​

-5​

-3​

-1​

0​

2​

3​

Whip

11-13

Whip

-13​

-9​

-9​

-6​

-4​

-1​

2​

5​

8​

11​

14​

Devil, Barbed

Fists

2-8

Morning Star

2​

3​

5​

6​

7​

8​

9​

10​

12​

13​

14​

Tail

3-12

Flail, Footman's

5​

4​

5​

6​

7​

7​

9​

10​

10​

10​

11​

Devil, Bone

Hook

3-12

Trident

1​

3​

3​

5​

6​

8​

9​

11​

13​

14​

16​

Tail

2-8

Spear

4​

5​

6​

7​

8​

10​

11​

12​

14​

15​

16​

Devil, Dispater

Staff

14-19

Staff, Quarter

-14​

-13​

-12​

-10​

-9​

-7​

-4​

-1​

2​

4​

6​

Devil, Erinyes

Dagger

5-11

Dagger

1​

4​

5​

7​

8​

11​

12​

14​

15​

17​

18​

Devil, Geryon

Fist

3-18

Pick, Military, Footman's

-3​

-3​

-2​

-1​

-1​

-1​

0​

0​

1​

1​

2​

Tail

2-8

Flail, Footman's

-4​

-5​

-4​

-3​

-2​

-2​

0​

1​

1​

1​

2​

Military Fork

9-18

Fork, Military

-10​

-8​

-8​

-7​

-5​

-4​

-2​

0​

1​

3​

4​

Devil, Horned

Fork

2-11

Fork, Military

3​

5​

5​

6​

8​

9​

11​

13​

14​

16​

17​

Whip

1-4

Whip

1​

5​

5​

8​

10​

13​

16​

19​

22​

25​

28​

Bite

1-4

Dagger

2​

5​

6​

8​

9​

12​

13​

15​

16​

18​

19​

Claw

2-5

Dagger

2​

5​

6​

8​

9​

12​

13​

15​

16​

18​

19​

Tail

1-3

Flail, Horseman's

5​

5​

6​

7​

9​

10​

11​

12​

13​

14​

15​

Devil, Ice

Spear

8-18

Spear

1​

2​

3​

4​

5​

7​

8​

9​

11​

12​

13​

Bite

3-12

Scimitar

0​

3​

4​

6​

7​

9​

11​

12​

14​

15​

17​

Claw

1=4

Dagger

0​

3​

4​

6​

7​

10​

11​

13​

14​

16​

17​

Tail

2-8

Flail, Horseman's

3​

3​

4​

5​

7​

8​

9​

10​

11​

12​

13​

Devil, Lemure

Tail

1-3

Dagger

4​

7​

8​

10​

11​

14​

15​

17​

18​

20​

21​

Devil, Pit Fiend

Ancus

8-14

Glaive-Guisarme

-1​

0​

1​

2​

3​

4​

5​

7​

8​

10​

11​

Morningstar

8-14

Morning Star

-3​

-2​

0​

1​

2​

3​

4​

5​

7​

8​

9​

Dinosaur, Anatosaurus

Tail

1-4

Mace, Footman's

3​

2​

4​

5​

6​

7​

7​

8​

9​

9​

10​

Dinosaur, Ankylosaurus

Tail

3-18

Flail, Footman's

5​

4​

5​

6​

7​

7​

9​

10​

10​

10​

11​

Dinosaur, Antrodamus

Claw

1-4

Scimitar

-2​

1​

2​

4​

5​

7​

9​

10​

12​

13​

15​

Bite

6-24

Sword, Two-handed

1​

1​

0​

1​

2​

4​

5​

7​

8​

10​

11​

Dinosaur, Apatosaurus

Tail

3-18

Lance (heavy)

-5​

-4​

-4​

-3​

-3​

-2​

-1​

-1​

0​

0​

1​

Stomp

4-40

Lance (heavy)

-5​

-4​

-4​

-3​

-3​

-2​

-1​

-1​

0​

0​

1​

Dinosaur, Archelon lschyras

Bite

3-12

Scimitar

2​

5​

6​

8​

9​

11​

13​

14​

16​

17​

19​

Dinosaur, Braicosaurus

Tail

5-20

Lance (heavy)

-5​

-4​

-4​

-3​

-3​

-2​

-1​

-1​

0​

0​

1​

Stomp

8-80

Lance (heavy)

-5​

-4​

-4​

-3​

-3​

-2​

-1​

-1​

0​

0​

1​

Dinosaur, Camarasaurus

Tail

5-20

Lance (heavy)

-2​

-1​

-1​

0​

0​

1​

2​

2​

3​

3​

4​

Stomp

3-30

Lance (heavy)

-2​

-1​

-1​

0​

0​

1​

2​

2​

3​

3​

4​

Dinosaur, Ceratosaurus

Claw

1-4

Scimitar

1​

4​

5​

7​

8​

10​

12​

13​

15​

16​

18​

Bite

6-24

Sword, Two-handed

4​

4​

3​

4​

5​

7​

8​

10​

11​

13​

14​

Dinosaur, Cetiosaurus

Tail

3-18

Lance (heavy)

-4​

-3​

-3​

-2​

-2​

-1​

0​

0​

1​

1​

2​

Stomp

4-40

Lance (heavy)

-4​

-3​

-3​

-2​

-2​

-1​

0​

0​

1​

1​

2​

Dinosaur, Dinichtys`

Bite

5-20

Sword, Two-handed

3​

3​

2​

3​

4​

6​

7​

9​

10​

12​

13​

Dinosaur, Diplodocus

Tail

3-18

Lance (heavy)

-4​

-3​

-3​

-2​

-2​

-1​

0​

0​

1​

1​

2​

Stomp

3-30

Lance (heavy)

-4​

-3​

-3​

-2​

-2​

-1​

0​

0​

1​

1​

2​

Dinosaur, Elasmosaurus

Bite

4-24

Sword, Two-handed

1​

1​

0​

1​

2​

4​

5​

7​

8​

10​

11​

Dinosaur, Gorgosaurus

Claw

1-3

Scimitar

-1​

2​

3​

5​

6​

8​

10​

11​

13​

14​

16​

Bite

7-28

Sword, Two-handed

2​

2​

1​

2​

3​

5​

6​

8​

9​

11​

12​

Dinosaur, Iguanadon

Gore

1-3

Hammer

5​

6​

7​

8​

9​

9​

11​

11​

13​

14​

15​

Tail

2-8

Mace, Footman's

6​

5​

7​

8​

9​

10​

10​

11​

12​

12​

13​

Dinosaur, Lambosaurus

Tail

3-18

Lance (heavy)

2​

3​

3​

4​

4​

5​

6​

6​

7​

7​

8​

 

[billd91]

I'm not sure I agree with anything in the 10 column being anything but 0. Why isn't that a baseline.

 

[Celebrim]

I'm not sure I agree with anything in the 10 column being anything but 0. Why isn't that a baseline.

I have had that same thought. But if we assume the table captures some idea, moving that would just move numbers around elsewhere.

The idea in the table that captured my attention 36 years ago or so when I first studied it seriously was, "There are some weapons on here that are light and nimble and so better suited to attacking something like a pixie, but which in term lack the weight or heft to punch through hard armor. And there are other weapons on here that have that weight and heft and can knock around an armored knight, splinter shields, shatter helms and that sort of thing, but which are a bit heavy and unwieldy if you are trying to hit something that is relying on being fast and nimble to avoid hits."

If we imagine a world where both that heavy mail piercing weapon (something that's the weapon equivalent of a pickaxe or a sledge hammer) and a lightweight very responsive sword both have +0 in the 10 category, what does that world say?

I think it's easier to capture the idea by varying the numbers in the 10 category just like all the rest of them.

Where I do agree with your observation is a somewhat related thought which is, "Too many of the weapons have a bonus in the 10's column". To me that bonus should be somewhat rare. And you'll see me implementing that with all the red numbers that are in the 10's column, but I concede I probably haven't modified the table enough for it to be maximally interesting.

 

[Bill Zebub]

If you'd asked me circa 1990 I probably would have said that being more realistic was in itself a good thing, but I probably wouldn't have understood what I meant by "realistic" at the time.

Now I'd say that what I meant by that is that reality is messy and complex and filled with tradeoffs, and that was inherently more interesting than just look down a list and picking the thing that gave you the most damage versus large sized creatures. It's also more interesting as a world to GM, because you have a reason why you might give the BBEG a mace rather than a longsword and he's not necessarily being sub-optimal by taking a mace. There is more to the choice than just flavor.

The first time someone switches from a sword to a pick or flail because the smaller damage dice is mitigated by better chance to hit, I personally feel it's worth it for game play, above and beyond the historian nerds in me going, "In the real world, real knights carried maces and flails as well as swords." Sure, I like the aesthetics of a game world that looks like I imagine the past to look like, but I do think there is more to it than that.

UPDATE: Thinking more on this, it feels like, "Why is everyone talking so much about the trial by combat in "Knight of the Seven Kingdoms?" Is it just "more realistic" and that in itself is a good thing?"

And the answer is of course, "No. It's a fantasy story. The "realism" such as it is is not the point. The point is that it requires someone with a very high understanding of historical European martial arts and weaponry to create the sort of varied and rich cinematography that went into that scene, and that felt really fresh to the audience because it was a lot more satisfying than just the hero swings his hero sword and we are supposed to imagine from the stunt doubles response that he just chopped through plate armor somehow."

And my answer to your question is, "This is part of a comprehensive approach to combat that forces tactical choices on the players and GM alike, so that if the fighter is beset by wild dogs I as the GM have to come with some believable way those dogs are still a threat to a juggernaut clad in steel beyond just saying, "roll... 16, it's a hit, take roll 3 points of damage."

I mean, the other way to accomplish that goal, of having diversity of weapons, but without all the bookkeeping, is to go the Dungeon World (and other games) route: damage is determined by the character holding it, not the weapon.

 

[Celebrim]

I mean, the other way to accomplish that goal, of having diversity of weapons, but without all the bookkeeping, is to go the Dungeon World (and other games) route: damage is determined by the character holding it, not the weapon.

Isn't that the opposite of my goal though?

Tactics are a combination of weapons and terrain. You just removed weapons from the equation.

DW is literally not designed to produce any of the aesthetics of play I'm describing.

 

[Nikosandros]

I think you'd have to break it down into plate, "heavy", mail, "medium", "light" and none because brigandine and splint are going to behave more like plate than mail and things like ring and scale are going to behave a bit better than leather or gambesons alone though maybe not as well as mail over gambeson.

Good arguments. I just used those four types because I modified a table that was already made by someone else.

But yes, you definitely can be critical of the table, but then the problem is that you'll still need to not just rework the table but rule what the natural armor of each monster counts as.

True and I applaud the work you are sharing here. Back when I was using the modifiers, I just assigned a type on the fly or, in some cases, applied no modifiers against some monsters.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Other than just the overall complexity*, the major issue I always had with the WvsAC chart was how it didn't interact well with critters that didn't use weapons or armor**. It was a great medieval arms and armor rule that didn't interact well with the fantasy part of the whole medieval fantasy game.
*and some frustration I had at the time with gamers that treated 'realism' as such an obvious goal as not needing to be argued.
**a large part of the total bestiaries, and probably even larger part of why many of us played the game

This fixes this -- for the most part. There is still an issue that the weapon vs armor weighing goes out the window once you have a silver dagger, a +1 longsword, and the wraiths and werewolves are breaking down the door. That reared its head even just with longswords -- they aren't as impressive as two-handed swords against heavy armor, but they comprise a huge majority of magic swords that come up, so they are likely still the weapon (and sword amongst the options) that will see the most proficiency selection.

Now that I think about it, the proficiency (and then specialization) slot system was a significant contributor to this* as well. In the basic-classic line (which by the time I'd gotten to it had long since jettisoned the weapon vs. armor rules) we had a lot more characters using spears and axes and polearms because you used whichever one you had the best (specific) weapon from and would switch back and forth as treasure piles turned up more options.
*the movement towards an always-taken set of weapons.

I think you'd have to break it down into plate, "heavy", mail, "medium", "light" and none because brigandine and splint are going to behave more like plate than mail and things like ring and scale are going to behave a bit better than leather or gambesons alone though maybe not as well as mail over gambeson.

Once we get to this kind of granularity, there's an infinitely deep rabbit hole we can dive down. Obviously the entire A/D&D armor system has some issues with realism on the armor side (studded and ring of course, but also layered armors as you mention, or the notion of leather and gambeson as 'light', etc.). There's also huge variation in weapons the game treats as a single entry (the wide variety of 'simple spear's and how their qualities change how they are used), whether they are used with shield or not, mounted or not, or in duel/skirmish/formation, to say nothing of which art, treatise, manual, or expert you consider most valuable. Perhaps best (IMO) to pick a level of abstraction going in (at least if you have a limited amount of time to devote).