A mini-rant re: Pathfinder and D&D

But it does have bearing as to whether it should be called D&D.

Doing so adds confusion, whereas calling it Pathfinder is clear as to which game is being referenced.

That I consider Pathfinder to be more like D&D than the current iteration of D&D is not germane. It is not the titular game.

4e, whether I like it or not, is the titular game. It is D&D, and Pathfinder, by that measure, is not.

I used to say 'let's play D&D next week!' Now I say 'let's play Pathfinder next week'.

No one has to ask me '3.5 or 4e?' Any fan of 4e is not going to be disappointed when I say 'sorry, I meant original Dungeons & Dragons (1975), all others are pale imitations'. (Someone has to say it.)

When I say Pathfinder my players know the game to which I refer. D&D would be sowing unnecessary confusion.

The Auld Grump
 

log in or register to remove this ad


Is it fair to call Jack's identical twin brother John "Jack" because they are so very similar? Their differences matter just as much as their similarities: Jack is Jack, John is John.

3.5Ed D&D is D&D. Pathfinder is Pathfinder. Arcana Evolved is Arcana Evolved. Etc.
 


I think that opens up a complete can of worms, as some have stated before. I think it would depend on whether

1. You consider rules as a defining mark of whether a game is D&D or not, or

2. Whether you consider whatever simply has the brand name attached to it as D&D.

If it is #1, then you probably would not consider anything after 2e as D&D or AD&D, and in some cases you might not even consider 2e as D&D (though 2e DID have the grandfather clause officially put out by TSR that said 1e rules could be grandfathered into 2e per your own houserules and needs (aka...use 1e but take from 2e what you want - Or vice versa).

In this instance, 3.X is a different game than D&D and simply got the name attached to a different set of rules. You'd be very happy to label it as D20 Fantasy, or Pathfinder, or whatever name it is, but it still wouldn't be D&D really.

You'd also probably say 4e is definately NOT D&D. Afterall, though it has the branding, it doesn't have the rules.

There is that odd bunch that claim 3.X was D&D but not 4e...which is the confusing bunch to many, most probably got their start with 3e or came back via the 3e years to D&D, and hence aren't really aware that 3e has some truly far reaching rule differences from the original AD&D (though closer to late AD&D 2e, especially without the grandfather clause tossed in).

The differences between 3e is even more incompatible from D&D then the differences are between 4e and 3e (aka 4e is MORE compatible with the ORIGINAL 3e by WotC, than 3e was with the original D&D).

(a) They would distinctly break the rules of the above two points...but then those two points are regarding those who WOULD NOT consider Pathfinder D&D. For these people who consider 3e as D&D, and NOT simply because it had a brand name attached to it...a NEW rule discussed below must be applied.

IF it is #2, it doesn't matter what rules are out there, as long as it has the D&D brand name/trademark on it. Hence OD&D was D&D. D&D 1e was D&D. 2e was D&D. 2.5 was D&D. 3e was D&D. 3.5 was D&D. 4e was D&D.

Hackmaster was NOT D&D. Castles and Crusades is not D&D. D20 (anything) isn't really D&D. OGL (whatever) is not D&D.

This also means that Pathfinder is...not D&D.

Both members of #1 and #2 can like Pathfinder, enjoy Pathfinder, but are probably very happy to separate Pathfinder from D&D in rules, name, or both. For them it is it's own separate game, and they are happy about that.

Now there is another group...that group are those who consider Pathfinder D&D. They do not fall into the two groups that consider pathfinder it's own game.

Many of these would be...

(A) Those that think rules define the game. They also have a broader scope of rules that they consider define what is or is not D&D. They consider 3e as much D&D as previous editions, but consider the changes to 4e (though less drastic than those of 3e from core AD&D...truthfully) as the point that broke the camels back. This was the point that enough sacred cows were killed that the game could no longer be called D&D.

Hence, pathfinder shares enough rules, and doesn't break enough sacred cows of D&D...hence it still IS D&D. For them, Pathfinder IS D&D.

In a broader sense, if they go on to consider some D20 and OGL products and how closely those products hew to the original rules...they could also consider Castles and Crusades D&D, D20 Modern D&D, Star Wars RPG by WotC as D&D, Paladium Roleplaying as D&D...etc. It is truly dependant on their personal definition of which rules actually define D&D.

B. Those that feel intent of what the game should be, or is, defines the game. Hence for them they feel that the intent of 3e was to bring back the feel of the original game, but with some modern ideas (though not necessarily better...just more recent) brought to the game table. Thus the intent of 3e was to be as D&D, but modernized and made for them. It's the feel of the game, rather than the exact rules. The creators of 3e didn't go out of their way to destroy D&D per se, but to cater it to a broader audience and to sell it, at least for their mindseye.

In that light, Pathfinder could theoretically be the spiritual sucessor of D&D. For them, Pathfinder could be D&D.

D20 (whatever) is not, the spirit of the game is different...the feel is different. The same would go for Star Wars D20, it's a different game. However Pathfinder is basically the EXACT SAME game. It's a continuation of their favorite game with a few tweaks. For them...Pathfinder IS D&D. (Then again, in that light I suppose one could consider Castles and Crusades D&D, and possibly a few of the Retro clones, but NOT ALL of the Retroclones).

This hopefully didn't offend anyone, nor make anyone upset. Hopefully they found one group listed they can identify with...and see how different views can make and define how different people talk about Pathfinder when considering whether it is D&D or not.

In that light, I wonder which group would you fall into ...1 or 2...or A or B.

Maybe you're a hybrid of 1a, or 1b, or maybe 2a or 2b...or maybe you don't have a group....

I'm thinking the 4 above types (we could even call them type 1 personalities or however we want, etc., etc., etc.) would include a majority of people and their ideas on this matter though.

Hopefully it addresses the different groups respectfully and nicely. Everyone is different and thier opinions are different to. That's just how the world flows at times.

Now can't we all just get along.



Personally, I'm happy just to call Pathfinder as Pathfinder and have those rules have their own distinct individuality as it's own game...rather then confuse people by calling it D&D and have them end up bringing other D&D books to the table (whether they accidentally bring 1e PHBs or 4e PHBs...when you say Pathfinder...thus far there's only ONE book they need to bring for that...no confusion there!).
 

If asked, I say I'm playing Pathfinder. If the asker doesn't know what that is, then I say it's like D & D.

Using the unqualified term D & D, denotes to me, the current edition of the game as presented by WotC.

And for me, 4e, being the current edition, is not D & D - it's something else just using that name. So, if referring to it, I will always call it as 4th Edition.
Sounds eerily similar to fanon discontinuity. "It's not a legitimate sequel if we pretend like it's not." ;)

I prefer to treat Dungeons & Dragons as the brand that it is. Even when things do not "feel like D&D to me," I do find it incredibly insulting (especially to those who hold that it is) to then say that it's not D&D. This inherently carries the clear and demeaning implication that those who enjoy playing a particular incarnation of D&D rulesets not preferred by the particular person are somehow "not playing D&D." For example, we see this even in Pathfinder. The new comic book will exhibit the Pathfinder brand, but it's clearly not a roleplaying game or will not even necessarily "feel like Pathfinder," as it's about marketing the brand. As a game, Pathfinder is heavily based on 3.5 D&D (practically cloned), but it does not care the D&D brand; it is not D&D. 4E D&D may not "feel like D&D" to some, but it carries the D&D brand; therefore, it is D&D. Believe it or not.
 

Sounds eerily similar to fanon discontinuity. "It's not a legitimate sequel if we pretend like it's not." ;)

I prefer to treat Dungeons & Dragons as the brand that it is. Even when things do not "feel like D&D to me," I do find it incredibly insulting (especially to those who hold that it is) to then say that it's not D&D. This inherently carries the clear and demeaning implication that those who enjoy playing a particular incarnation of D&D rulesets not preferred by the particular person are somehow "not playing D&D." For example, we see this even in Pathfinder. The new comic book will exhibit the Pathfinder brand, but it's clearly not a roleplaying game or will not even necessarily "feel like Pathfinder," as it's about marketing the brand. As a game, Pathfinder is heavily based on 3.5 D&D (practically cloned), but it does not care the D&D brand; it is not D&D. 4E D&D may not "feel like D&D" to some, but it carries the D&D brand; therefore, it is D&D. Believe it or not.
Which is why a lot of people, myself included, say "I am done with D&D. The current game for D&D does not feel like D&D to me, at all, and I will not play it'.

Sorry, but saying that it does not feel like D&D is perfectly legitimate - WotC patted themselves publicly on the back for how much they had changed. They should not be surprised when people say that it no longer feels like D&D, then go and play a game that is not named D&D, but feels more like D&D to them than the titular D&D.

So, do not feel hurt when folks say that D&D is dead to them. And do not be surprised when folks refer to 'that game' as 4e, and not as D&D. It may bear the title, but for many, myself included, it is no longer the same game.

WotC changed the game, boasted of how they had changed the game, and shut themselves out of much that the name had come to represent.

As the sales between 3.P and 4e teeter back and forth, I doubt that they are patting themselves on the back quite so heartily. (Actually, going by some of the recent comments from Mr. Mearls, they are not patting themselves on the back at all.)

And now, just because I am feeling snarky, let me give a silent whale - my hat of d04 know no limit. :p (Sorry, I could not resist... D20 also got its share of h4t3. It is not meant to be taken seriously.)

The Auld Grump, so, is a person who runs both games a Dung3on M4ster?
 

Sounds eerily similar to fanon discontinuity. "It's not a legitimate sequel if we pretend like it's not." ;)

I prefer to treat Dungeons & Dragons as the brand that it is. Even when things do not "feel like D&D to me," I do find it incredibly insulting (especially to those who hold that it is) to then say that it's not D&D.

While I've always loved and played D&D (at least the first 3 versions), it was never the brand I was loyal to, rather the game. I was playing the game that Gary Gygax invented, not some game owned by TSR, WotC or Hasbro. What a lawyer says, or what a Dow Jones listing says, means nothing to me. Its only the game that has any value at all - at least to the person that plays it.

To some 4e ain't D&D, for some it is - we're all entitled to our opinions, aren't we? Why is anyone's preference ever an affront to anothers? That make's little sense. We're only talking about a game, not making personal attacks to anyone. How something 'feels' is a personal thing - how could somebody else's feeling with a game having anything to do with you? How might that even be insulting???
 
Last edited:

Which is why a lot of people, myself included, say "I am done with D&D. The current game for D&D does not feel like D&D to me, at all, and I will not play it'.

Sorry, but saying that it does not feel like D&D is perfectly legitimate - WotC patted themselves publicly on the back for how much they had changed. They should not be surprised when people say that it no longer feels like D&D, then go and play a game that is not named D&D, but feels more like D&D to them than the titular D&D.

So, do not feel hurt when folks say that D&D is dead to them. And do not be surprised when folks refer to 'that game' as 4e, and not as D&D. It may bear the title, but for many, myself included, it is no longer the same game.

WotC changed the game, boasted of how they had changed the game, and shut themselves out of much that the name had come to represent.
Saying that for you "it does not feel like D&D is perfectly legitimate." I agree, and I have no interest in debating your feelings on the matter, because that's beside my point. That's a matter of preference. But where I take issue is in people saying that "D&D 4E is not D&D," as I feel that this attitude is rudely insulting to those who do enjoy and think of it as D&D. Neither "it does not feel like D&D" nor "4E is not D&D to me," which are subjective statements of opinion and preference, are implied in "4E is not D&D," which is phrased as an objective and categorical statement. You can call it an issue of semantics, but I vehemently dislike the idea of somehow insinuating that other people are not playing D&D by playing 4E D&D. And I hope that you can understand why that attitude would be.

While I've always loved and played D&D (at least the first 3 versions), it was never the brand I was loyal to, rather the game. I was playing the game that Gary Gygax invented, not some game owned by TSR, WotC or Hasbro. What a lawyer says, or what a Dow Jones listing says, means nothing to me. Its only the game that has any value at all - at least to the person that plays it.

To some 4e ain't D&D, for some it is - we're all entitled to our opinions, aren't we? Why is anyone's preference ever an affront to anothers? That make's little sense. We're only talking about a game, not making personal attacks to anyone. How something 'feels' is a personal thing - why should somebody else's feeling with a game having anything to do with you? How could that even be insulting???
I am NOT arguing against what feels like D&D to you or your preferences, so stop pretending like I am. It's just a strawman. Saying that "it does not feel like D&D to me" is not insulting - nor have I suggested that it was - as that's stating your preference. Saying that "4E is not D&D" basically carries the implication that people who play and enjoy 4E D&D are not playing D&D, and that is insulting.
 
Last edited:

Saying that for you "it does not feel like D&D is perfectly legitimate." I agree, and I have no interest in debating your feelings on the matter, because that's beside my point. That's a matter of preference. But where I take issue is in people saying that "D&D 4E is not D&D," as I feel that this attitude is rudely insulting to those who do enjoy and think of it as D&D. Neither "it does not feel like D&D" nor "4E is not D&D to me," which are subjective statements of opinion and preference, are implied in "4E is not D&D," which is phrased as an objective and categorical statement. You can call it an issue of semantics, but I vehemently dislike the idea of somehow insinuating that other people are not playing D&D by playing 4E D&D. And I hope that you can understand why that attitude would be.
Accepted then - I do not claim that 4e is not D&D. I avoid calling it that, I do not think of it as such, but I do not claim that it is not.

This habit is likely unnoticeable, given that in the name of clarity I typically call D&D 3e just '3e' and D&D 3.5 just '3.5' - so calling D&D 4e just 4e is pretty much an invisible difference. The reason is different, but the actual practice is identical. (I'd roll my eyes at me, if only I could).

The Auld Grump, how dare you not notice my invisible rebellion?!
 

Remove ads

Top