A More Sensible Monk

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Let me preface this by saying that I like the Monk class, for the most part; unlike many people on these (and other) boards, I do not think they are an anachronism in standard D&D campaign settings, and unlike the majority of people I game with, I do not believe that they are more powerful than other classes. I like the idea of a disciplined, mystical warrior who strives for physical and spiritual perfection.

However, I do have a problem with one specific mechanical ability of the Monk class: their unarmed damage. While I do not have a problem with a dedicated martial artist (especially one with supernatural powers) being capable of doing terrible damage with his bare hands, I do have a problem with a superbly-trained warrior becoming suddenly less deadly when he draws a weapon he's been trained to use for his entire career.

How might I make armed combat a more attractive option for Monks, without changing their power level, and while still allowing unarmed combat to remain viable?

I have been considering giving Monks the Weapon Focus feat tree (including the Fighter-only feats) with their unarmed attacks for free (duplicating some of the unarmed damage) and expanding the Ki Strike class ability to include other special effects, so that Monks are still impressive unarmed fighters, but would still be inclined to take advantage of level-appropriate magical weapons. I am also strongly in favor of adding the Combat Martial Arts feat tree from d20 Modern, with the Monk automatically gaining them as appropriate.

What are your thoughts?

 

[isoChron]

My first thought about making a monk a fighter class is give him a fighter BAB.
That would make his special attack actions like disarm, grapple and sunder more useful at higher levels.
I would still give him a unarmed damage progression, but end with 2d6 at 18th level or so.
The weapon focus/specialisation feat tree is a good way to improve the damage without changing the dice. I like that. If he is not the one specialised in unarmed damage, who is ?

Regarding weapons... hmm, perhaps let him increase the damage dice for special monk weapons, too. Say like 1d8 for a kama at 11th level and 1d10 for a kama at 17th level or such. I would not be overly powerful but useful.

To compensate this benefits he could lose greater flurry and slow down the flurry progression.

Just my instant thoughts (add water).
BYE

 

[Roxlimn]

I think part of the reason the Monk is terrible with weapons is because the design concept is that the monk's unarmed damage is mystical in a direct and unexplainable way. It's just that way and no reason exists behind it that either you or I can believe.

If you want to model a warrior who's deadly with his weapons and develops unarmed fighting as a weapon together with the rest of his arsenal, then I highly suggest checking out d20 Modern martial arts system and OA Mastery and related martial arts rules.

Based on these rules, I highly suggest developing an unarmed line of feats that Monks get for free, and may exchange for weapon feats as necessary.

The Complete Adventurer also sports the Ascetic line of feats that can support your idea. A Fighter/Monk who advances his unarmed training with his weapon training sounds very plausible and flavorful. Suggest allowing Ascetic Warrior to stack Fighter and Monk levels for the purpose of getting Specialization and in determining unarmed damage and AC bonuses. Also suggest slightly expanding the list for Monk bonus feats at the appropriate levels.

 

[Terath Ninir]

I'm not sure what to do with the monk, exactly, but I am not at all satisfied with the class.

Stuff I *do* know I want to do: fighter BAB and "average" saves (from +1 at 1st level to +9 at 20th level). I want a class that is primarily about the fighting and not about the mystical mumbo jumbo. I'm the type of guy who rolls my eyes when I hear martial artists talking about chi or ki 'n' such stuff. I'm here for the butt-kicking, no philosophy.

I was initially thinking of dumping flurry of blows (fighter BAB + flurry seems awfully harsh), but I think dropping the potential unarmed damage is a better solution. If you look at a kung fu movie, the fights tend to be fast and furious. They have a large number of hits, rather than individually powerful hits. So I'd drop the unarmed damage down -- start it at a d4 instead of a d6 -- but you still get the flurry ability.

I'm really not sure what to do about weapons, though. Maybe one could rule that a martial arts weapon does its normal damage, or the martial artist's unarmed damage, whichever is higher. You could have a feat or ability that allows you to make a weapon into a martial arts weapon, too; lots of arts, even tai chi, use the sword, for instance.

Just my general thoughts on the matter.

 

[Bladesong]

We have actually tried a number of things in our group (none of which seemed to have any balance changing impact on the game at all although I am sure there are people out there who could find a way to do so).

The things we have tried (in no particular order) are:
1.) Slightly tweeked the fighter to create a martial artist (cannot remember what we actually called it right at the moment). This was done by basically changing starting feats. That is we dropped all of his armor and weapon use feats and used the optional Defensive bonus from Unearthed Arcana, and gave back just the monk list of weapons, the flurry of blows ability, and improved unarmed attack feat. He gained no additional "mystical" abilities, used the fighter progression for feats, gave him good saves in Fort and Ref, and he just used feats to mold himself into whatever style the player wanted.

2.) We dropped weapons use altogether and gave him an extra feat instead and introduced items that enhanced unarmed attacks (i.e. bracers, gloves,rings, etc. flaming, frost, shock, etc.)

3.) We allowed the monk to pick a weapon with which he could do his unarmed damage with, and allowed a feat that would add an additional weapon (could be taken multiple times, but only added one weapon each time it would be taken). Just a note here that although we let him have the unarmed damage for it, he could not use it with flurry of blows; the "reasoning" for this was that slightly more effort was put into becoming the perfect weapon oneself and the weapon somehow "slightly impared" the natural flow of things.

In any case it is fun to try new things. Try several things and see what you like best.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

If you want to model a warrior who's deadly with his weapons and develops unarmed fighting as a weapon together with the rest of his arsenal, then I highly suggest checking out d20 Modern martial arts system and OA Mastery and related martial arts rules.

d20 Modern is my intended starting point-- it hadn't occurred to me yet to mine Oriental Adventures for martial arts mastery rules. Thank you for reminding me of it.

Based on these rules, I highly suggest developing an unarmed line of feats that Monks get for free, and may exchange for weapon feats as necessary.

My current thought is to use the Weapon Focus feat chain and the Combat Martial Arts feat chain and give a bonus feat from one or the other at any level when a Monk's unarmed damage would increase. With Greater Weapon Specialization and Advanced Martial Arts, the Monk does 1d4+4 (the equivalent of a d12) base damage, with a critical range of 19-20 and a critical multiplier of x3.

At that level, the Monk is very much a respectable unarmed combatant, but might still prefer to wield a +5 kama if one is accessible. With a good range of Ki Strike special abilities, the Monk would also rely, at times, on their unarmed strikes, unless they possessed a ki focus weapon.

The Complete Adventurer also sports the Ascetic line of feats that can support your idea.

I've been disallowing those feats in my games because of how they interact with the Gestalt rules, but I'll keep your suggestion in mind.

I'm not sure what to do with the monk, exactly, but I am not at all satisfied with the class.

Stuff I *do* know I want to do: fighter BAB and "average" saves (from +1 at 1st level to +9 at 20th level). I want a class that is primarily about the fighting and not about the mystical mumbo jumbo. I'm the type of guy who rolls my eyes when I hear martial artists talking about chi or ki 'n' such stuff. I'm here for the butt-kicking, no philosophy.

See, I've seen this approach used effectively before, but it's not what I'm interested in. I like the Monk as a mystical warrior and therefore like the "mystical mumbo jumbo". As far as a non-mystical martial artist is concerned, that's what the Fighter is for-- and I've tried to make the Fighter capable of becoming as deadly in hand-to-hand combat as the Monk. (I'm still working on that.)

I'm really not sure what to do about weapons, though. Maybe one could rule that a martial arts weapon does its normal damage, or the martial artist's unarmed damage, whichever is higher. You could have a feat or ability that allows you to make a weapon into a martial arts weapon, too; lots of arts, even tai chi, use the sword, for instance.

I wouldn't allow the Monk to change the damage value on a Monk weapon-- there's nothing else in the game that allows this to work (except for changing the character's and weapon's sizes), and the fact that the Monk can do it with his hands bothers me somewhat.

The latter, however, makes sense. It would emulate the fact that different styles of martial arts train in different weapons, and it would allow the Monk player to customize his character in an interesting fashion. Eberron's Monk feats also allow this with certain weapons-- the longsword, double-bladed sword, and longspear, if I remember correctly-- and I'd imagine that any Gith Monk would apply it to the Greatsword. The combination of this and the Oriental Adventures style masteries would allow for a simple, versatile way to differentiate different martial arts schools.

Another neat trick is, with the way these rules make it possible for different approaches to martial arts, many monasteries or dojos would have a broad selection of classes associated with them-- Fighters, Monks, Psychic Warriors, and possibly even others.

Now, all I have to do is apply this to d20 Modern's Martial Artist class.

 

[Rasyr]

However, I do have a problem with one specific mechanical ability of the Monk class: their unarmed damage. While I do not have a problem with a dedicated martial artist (especially one with supernatural powers) being capable of doing terrible damage with his bare hands, I do have a problem with a superbly-trained warrior becoming suddenly less deadly when he draws a weapon he's been trained to use for his entire career.

I prefer simple solutions.

My suggest is to create a Monk-only Feat that can be taken multiple times. In essence it is a Weapon Kata, and allows him to use any Unarmed Combat ability with the weapon (higher damage, the Ki Strikes, etc...). This would reflect the Monk making the weapon an extension of himself. IIRC, Monks can use Flurry of Blows with thier weapons, this only extends that ability to other Monk related abilities.

Have this feat apply to only a single melee (or thrown - as in the case of shuriken/darts)
weapon, chosen at the time it is taken, and allow it to be taken multiple times.

 

[ARandomGod]

First of all, I'm for giving the monks almost fighter BAB progression. I still think they should "buy in" to the monk class at level one by starting at +0 to BAB. But thereafter full progression.

Secondly I say drop all monk weapons. There is no such thing. They get instead simple weapon proficiency, and their flurry of blows works with any weapon they're proficient in. This removes some people's objections of the odd semi-oriental flavor. No special 'oriental' weapons, no special oriental flavor!

I found some of the things Cyberzombie said to be particularly interesting. Notably:

I was initially thinking of dumping flurry of blows (fighter BAB + flurry seems awfully harsh), but I think dropping the potential unarmed damage is a better solution. If you look at a kung fu movie, the fights tend to be fast and furious. They have a large number of hits, rather than individually powerful hits. So I'd drop the unarmed damage down -- start it at a d4 instead of a d6 -- but you still get the flurry ability.

I like the idea of starting out their unarmed damage at d4. Then I was thinking of having the increased damage happen a little more slowly but apply to all weapons the monk is proficient with. That's right, work out something so that when the d4 from the fists goes up to d6, ALL weapons the monk can use go up as if the monk went up a size catagory.

You'll have to slow down the (unarmed) damage progression, certainly (and it'll no longer be just unarmed), but it's such a simple and elegant solution to the issue Korimyr the Rat is asking about. Suddenly the monk IS better with weapons. But still does a great job barehanded (if not AS good as the 'traditional' monk).

Hrmm... I'll have to look at that and see if I can come up with a progression that is balanced with the addition of weapons.