A New "anti-D&D" Era

[Benjamin Olson]

This is kinda nonsensical given the fact that they aren’t abandoning 5e, the revised core books are neither aimless nor a remix, just an update or revision.

Yeah, to clarify I really meant more that WotC will eventually diverge more from 5e in a subsequent edition whereas 5e probably has a long life after they do it. OneD&D is still on track to be a 5e clone. My thinking was that after OneD&D proves anemic in sales due to what I foresee as it's general lack of a selling point beyond inevitability, 6e or 7e or whatever will eventually come and be a more substantial departure. I'll confess I absolutely did not make that clear. In part because it was irrelevant to my main point, which was not that OneD&D is or is not a 5e product, but rather that, to me, it is just another 5e brand and not one I'm enthusiastic about.

As for my "aimless remix" editorializing, that I'll stand by. But to add more nuance, I think it is "aimless" by dint not of there being no intended purpose, but of there being too many cooks in the kitchen working at cross purposes, once you factor in both a substantial design team and a whole corporate aparatus of legal departments, and marketing departments, and ect. departments having their say. If you try to aim in multiple directions at once, you'll find you're not aiming.

 

[Jahydin]

@Reynard
My tinfoil hat theory:

I agree with you in regards to the... let's call them "classical" players. More of our little pocket will certainly be moving on to other game systems as their "main".

But unlike the early days, there is an entire new group of digital focused players that have money to burn that are going to spend unprecedented amounts of money. D&D will financially be better off than they ever have. And once that happens, you can guess Paizo isn't going to be that far behind...

As someone that has watched video games get monetized to the extreme and it being ridiculously successful despite the diehards wailing, I feel like I know how this is going to go unfortunately.

 

[Reynard]

I mean, whatever MCDM is going to do is WAY off in the future. Pathfinder 2E is selling gangbusters. Kobold Press's Black Flag has started a public playtest. Cubicle 7 has a system on Kickstarter. EN Publishing created Level Up even before the fiasco.
I don't see MCDM as leading any more than the other companies.

3of those are 5e.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah, to clarify I really meant more that WotC will eventually diverge more from 5e in a subsequent edition whereas 5e probably has a long life after they do it. OneD&D is still on track to be a 5e clone. My thinking was that after OneD&D proves anemic in sales due to what I foresee as it's general lack of a selling point beyond inevitability, 6e or 7e or whatever will eventually come and be a more substantial departure. I'll confess I absolutely did not make that clear. In part because it was irrelevant to my main point, which was not that OneD&D is or is not a 5e product, but rather that, to me, it is just another 5e brand and not one I'm enthusiastic about.

As for my "aimless remix" editorializing, that I'll stand by. But to add more nuance, I think it is "aimless" by dint not of there being no intended purpose, but of there being too many cooks in the kitchen working at cross purposes, once you factor in both a substantial design team and a whole corporate aparatus of legal departments, and marketing departments, and ect. departments having their say. If you try to aim in multiple directions at once, you'll find you're not aiming.

Fair enough on the clarification, though I still disagree that such an outcome is likely (1DnD tanking, that is).

On the last part, well, see above really. I get it, but I disagree. I think there is a clear design vision in place, I think it is primarily Crawford’s vision, who has been the mechanics guy of 5e since the next playtest, and I think what we have seen points toward a new PHB that revised the core rules to run more smoothly and be even more versatile, helpful, and fun, within the framework of the same game. Its selling point is improving the game for most people playing it, which will sell, IMO.

 

[Reynard]

I know that "anti-D&D" sounds like I am spoiling for a fight but I am really not. it was the most efficient term I could think of for that era's zeitgeist I am hoping returns. I mean, there's already plenty of antipathy for D&D in parts of the community -- go to r/rpg and ask about a warlock build... I don't actually care for that stuff, especially in its "magical tea party play versus trash trad play" form where folks aren't arguing about games, but whole playstyles.

Anyway, I want to see creators and publishers doing the Big Idea stuff of systems and worlds divorced primarily from 5E but also not just another Year Zero, PbtA or FitD game. The reason I brought up Coville and MCDM wasn't because he's the only one doing it, but that he is a pretty prominent voice and that has the potential to inspire others to do it. I honestly don't quite understand the point of Black Flag in a world where not only is the 5E SRD in the CC but 1D&D isn't particularly far removed from 5E. But who knows, maybe Black Flag will be more of a 5E Arcana Unearthed than a 5E Pathfinder.

 

[Jer]

Powered by the Apocalypse is now in Target.

It's impressive that Magpie was able to negotiate this. Part of it is just the power of the license and Target wanting to have more Avatar stuff on their shelves, but I don't recall Fantasy Flight ever managing to get any of the Star Wars starter boxes onto the shelves at Target.

I hope this encourages other companies to think about reaching out to the big box stores to get starter sets onto their shelves. Edge (Asmodee) and Modiphius are both sitting on properties that Target would probably love to see on their shelves - I can't imagine they'd say no to an exclusive new Star Trek starter set and/or a new Star Wars starter set. And if Marvel isn't already planning a starter set for the big box stores with their new RPG coming out later this year then they really should be.

Popular licenses should be the easy lift to get into the mainstream stores. Magpie getting Avatar out there while older more established companies haven't makes me wonder if they've even tried?

 

[Burt Baccara]

I think the fates of "5e" and "D&D" diverged the day WotC released the 5e SRD under creative commons, and the divergence will only increase over time. And thus anti-D&Dism and anti-5eism will diverge more over time. For every designer who took the OGL fiasco as time to reevaluate their relationship with D&D and 5e and realized the day had come to forge their own game from scratch, I think there is another thinking about how they can capitalize on WotC abandoning a wildly popular game with a vast install base in favor of an aimless remix thereof, while at the same time giving the core of it away to anyone who wants to make their own remix. There will be lots of 5e games long after D&D ceases to be one of them.

Which is all to say that I am, myself a 5e cloner, and I plan to keep right on keeping on with playing 5e in both original and clone flavors, but I still would count myself as part of an "anti-D&D" movement in that OneD&D is the 5e clone I have the least interest in or hope for, and I am very much doing my own thing with my clone, just not from scratch.

Using the definition of someone who plays an older edition of a game, the meaning for grognard. Every 5e player is a grognard waiting to happen, or at least has the potential to become the next generation of grognard. And you know what, that is OK, people should embrace the games they like.

That definition also means every player of Pathfinder (1e anyway), is a grognard.

 

[schneeland]

I know that "anti-D&D" sounds like I am spoiling for a fight but I am really not. it was the most efficient term I could think of for that era's zeitgeist I am hoping returns. I mean, there's already plenty of antipathy for D&D in parts of the community -- go to r/rpg and ask about a warlock build...

In /r/rpg (and also a couple of other places), I feel the antipathy is largely driven by D&D5 being so massive that a) it dwarfs everything else and b) lots of people write posts in the assumption that everybody is playing D&D5 anyway. So people mostly want a place where they can discuss stuff other than D&D. The situation would probably improve with "current-gen D&D" taking less of the market, but with many systems staying largely in the D&D5-related design space, I currently don't see that happening.

 

[Lord_Blacksteel]

I can argue with the initial premise for the OP: D&D 2E launched in 1989 and it was huge so D&D hardly went dormant during this time. By the mid-90's and the Players Options books, sure, but the early 90's - no. D&D was still the big dog and though VtM made a lot of inroads it never became the institution that D&D was.

That said there was a lot of creativity throughout the 80's even before this with even TSR putting out non-D&D based rules with Star Frontiers and Marvel Super Heroes being two of them. We had a Star Trek RPG, a Star Wars RPG, DC Heroes, Champions and the other Hero System games, GURPS, Twilight 2000, Warhammer Fantasy, Shadowrun, Battletech/Mechwarrior - all of these and many more launched and were popular enough to run for years, typically with multiple editions too.

When WOTC initially released the OGL it generated a bunch of d20 based games and supplements that were mainly aimed at D&D players with Mutants and Masterminds being the most divergent of the bunch I would say. It pushed some bounded creativity but it mainly seemed to pull things towards the center (D&D) because people figured they could make money with it.

I think that's the biggest difference between the 80's/90's and the last 20 years - in those days people put out the game they wanted to make even if it differed radically from D&D. Since the OGL a lot of people have had the idea they can make money from their hobby if they "attach" to D&D and plug into the network effect etc. - some did, and some did not. However, I do think it pulled a lot of effort towards D&D instead of some other system and setting.

So do I think a new open license for D&D today is going to spur some new wave of new non-D&D games? Probably not. Yes, people were angry at WOTC and many still are, but in addition to the 5E CC option the other D&D-adjacent companies like KP and Paizo are putting out other open licenses which are still tied to D&D type games. You don't need a license to publish your own game - you need a license to publish for someone else's game.

Plus look at what else is out there even with the popularity of 5E: PbtA has been mentioned, Modiphius has gone nuts with games for their 2D20 system, Savage Worlds is probably more popular than it ever has been, GURPS and Hero are still around in some form, and FATE and Cortex are still out there making new games as well. There is no lack of options system-wise. I don't think we will see a huge spike for these but I'm sure they've been getting some attention they might not have received otherwise.

So no, I think while the outrage will cause some people to look at other options to play, I think a shiny new open license specifically covering 5E (and new ones for some D&D-type games like Pathfinder) means the people publishing stuff will move even closer to D&D, especially if that's already their bread & butter.

 

[Reynard]

I can argue with the initial premise for the OP:

I'm not actually sure you understood my premise based on the rest of your post.

D&D 2E launched in 1989 and it was huge so D&D hardly went dormant during this time. By the mid-90's and the Players Options books, sure, but the early 90's - no. D&D was still the big dog and though VtM made a lot of inroads it never became the institution that D&D was.

I didn't say D&D was dying, I said there was a backlash that let to a lot of innovation in the industry at that time.

That said there was a lot of creativity throughout the 80's even before this with even TSR putting out non-D&D based rules with Star Frontiers and Marvel Super Heroes being two of them. We had a Star Trek RPG, a Star Wars RPG, DC Heroes, Champions and the other Hero System games, GURPS, Twilight 2000, Warhammer Fantasy, Shadowrun, Battletech/Mechwarrior - all of these and many more launched and were popular enough to run for years, typically with multiple editions too.

Yes. I said that. A lot of those games got new editions at that time.

So do I think a new open license for D&D today is going to spur some new wave of new non-D&D games? Probably not. Yes, people were angry at WOTC and many still are, but in addition to the 5E CC option the other D&D-adjacent companies like KP and Paizo are putting out other open licenses which are still tied to D&D type games. You don't need a license to publish your own game - you need a license to publish for someone else's game.

I'm not sure what the point here is.

Plus look at what else is out there even with the popularity of 5E: PbtA has been mentioned, Modiphius has gone nuts with games for their 2D20 system, Savage Worlds is probably more popular than it ever has been, GURPS and Hero are still around in some form, and FATE and Cortex are still out there making new games as well. There is no lack of options system-wise. I don't think we will see a huge spike for these but I'm sure they've been getting some attention they might not have received otherwise.

Again, I am specifically talking about a new round of innovation. Most of those game systems are at least 10 years old, and some much older. I know it is a shocker but Apocalypse World came out 13 years ago.

So no, I think while the outrage will cause some people to look at other options to play, I think a shiny new open license specifically covering 5E (and new ones for some D&D-type games like Pathfinder) means the people publishing stuff will move even closer to D&D, especially if that's already their bread & butter.

Boy do I hope you're wrong because an even more D&D dominated market is the last thing we need.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I think that's the biggest difference between the 80's/90's and the last 20 years - in those days people put out the game they wanted to make even if it differed radically from D&D. Since the OGL a lot of people have had the idea they can make money from their hobby if they "attach" to D&D and plug into the network effect etc. - some did, and some did not. However, I do think it pulled a lot of effort towards D&D instead of some other system and setting.

This is exactly correct.

I honestly have trouble following the argument in the OP for a simple reason- we saw an absolute explosion of RPGs in the late 70s and 80s, most of them having completely different systems than D&D did. Even the other games that TSR made used wildly different systems than D&D did.

I'd argue that the default assumption during that time was that if you wanted a new RPG, you had to create brand new rules for that RPG as a differentiating factor. So you not only had all of these different RPGs, you also had all of these different rules.

As opposed to what you have today, where almost every game is:
A. OGL (3e derived).
B. OGL (5e derived).
C. PbTA derived games.
D. FiTD derived games (which is PbTA derived).

Once you get away from that, there just isn't a lot of actual innovation.

As for the OP, we'll see. People have bet against D&D for almost five decades now. I honestly don't know what the secret sauce, but at this point, I'll put D&D along with Death and Taxes- best not to bet against it.

 

[Cruentus]

Anyway, I want to see creators and publishers doing the Big Idea stuff of systems and worlds divorced primarily from 5E but also not just another Year Zero, PbtA or FitD game. The reason I brought up Coville and MCDM wasn't because he's the only one doing it, but that he is a pretty prominent voice and that has the potential to inspire others to do it. I honestly don't quite understand the point of Black Flag in a world where not only is the 5E SRD in the CC but 1D&D isn't particularly far removed from 5E. But who knows, maybe Black Flag will be more of a 5E Arcana Unearthed than a 5E Pathfinder.

But this, and as @Snarf Zagyg points out, we are going to most likely see a continuation with variation of 5e. 5e is the largest RPG in the world, makes the most money, now has a movie coming out, etc., any company that wants to make money will be "5e adjacent". People flocked to Pathfinder because of 4e. People left Pathfinder because of 5e, and sure, there're seeing a bump in sales, but I'll bet its not sustainable. People know DnD, know 5e, and that'll be the way for the forseeable future.

Would it be great of people made new and interesting games with wide pick up? Absolutely. Will it happen? Unlikely. As a former Games Workshop player/consumer, if I had a nickel for every time any number of new companies/games "were going to eat GW's lunch", and discussion about "GW going to go bankrupt", I'd be comfortably retired. But GW, and WOTC, make money hand over fist. Its comfortable, its reliable, and as new players come on board, they're not going for the niche (nichier?) offering, they're going for the main game with all the books, maps, miniatures, pre painted miniatures, movie, tchotchkes, etc. where they can find a game simply.

 

[Grendel_Khan]

Anyway, I want to see creators and publishers doing the Big Idea stuff of systems and worlds divorced primarily from 5E but also not just another Year Zero, PbtA or FitD game. The reason I brought up Coville and MCDM wasn't because he's the only one doing it, but that he is a pretty prominent voice and that has the potential to inspire others to do it. I honestly don't quite understand the point of Black Flag in a world where not only is the 5E SRD in the CC but 1D&D isn't particularly far removed from 5E. But who knows, maybe Black Flag will be more of a 5E Arcana Unearthed than a 5E Pathfinder.

In a hobby where the dominant game is based on mechanics from a half-century ago, YZE, PbtA and FitD are are still very new, as far as RPG design approaches go. Batting those aside as been-there, done-that seems awful dismissive. And you should know by now that individual games that use those design approaches feel and play very differently from each other. Hell, a lot of people who love Ironsworn don't even realize that they're playing a PbtA game.

 

[Jer]

As opposed to what you have today, where almost every game is:
A. OGL (3e derived).
B. OGL (5e derived).
C. PbTA derived games.
D. FiTD derived games (which is PbTA derived).

Once you get away from that, there just isn't a lot of actual innovation.

I feel like this is a bit unfair because, sure, if you're weighing it in "Systems per pound" those four systems dominate the DriveThru RPG shelves. But - Modiphius has their 2d20 system, Renegade is putting out licensed work with their Essence20 system, Free League has their Year Zero system - two of these are companies putting out their own games alongside licensed work with those systems. And of course other older systems like Storyteller are still cranking along (Onyx Path seems to crank out a new game every year with their Storyteller-derived Storypath system). And many others.

3e/5e/PbtA all have more games coming out because those systems were opened up for the world to use as they saw fit, so in sheer mass you have more games coming out for them. 3e and 5e both had the strong incentive that by publishing with them you tap into the D&D player network, and PbtA has the dual benefits that it's both simpler to design for than a lot of systems and a large player network of PbtA games that cropped up very quickly when Apocalypse World first appeared. (I could go into why I think PbtA caught that zeitgeist - I think it was half in the design of the system itself, half of it hitting right as Wizards was screwing up D&D's hold on the industry - but I'll keep that out).

I think there's opportunity for other games now but the companies making them have to make those opportunities. If you can't get your game out in front of people to buy, you're never going to get an audience.

 

[Reynard]

This is exactly correct.

I honestly have trouble following the argument in the OP for a simple reason- we saw an absolute explosion of RPGs in the late 70s and 80s, most of them having completely different systems than D&D did. Even the other games that TSR made used wildly different systems than D&D did.

I'd argue that the default assumption during that time was that if you wanted a new RPG, you had to create brand new rules for that RPG as a differentiating factor. So you not only had all of these different RPGs, you also had all of these different rules.

As opposed to what you have today, where almost every game is:
A. OGL (3e derived).
B. OGL (5e derived).
C. PbTA derived games.
D. FiTD derived games (which is PbTA derived).

Once you get away from that, there just isn't a lot of actual innovation.

As for the OP, we'll see. People have bet against D&D for almost five decades now. I honestly don't know what the secret sauce, but at this point, I'll put D&D along with Death and Taxes- best not to bet against it.

I don't think you understood my argument, which probably means I wasn't clear.

The system explosion in the late 70s happened because roleplaying games were new and people were exploring that space. The one that happened in the 90s was due in large part to D&D fatigue. Of course there is no clear line and you can always find counter examples.

And I am not betting against D&D. I am hoping for a level of innovation we haven't seen in 15 years or so when the collapse of the d20 glut gave rise to a whole bunch of new games. I am hoping that the reinforcement of 5E as the vastly dominant game in the market will push people to do other things.

 

[payn]

I do feel like 5E is burning out D&D. A lot of people love how "easy and simple" 5E is.....at first. But it does not have the staying power of a long term game. The big hole is that it simply does not have the rules. I, myself, add a ton of house rules to 5E to make it more like 2E. But that is a lot of work for most people.

I do see gamers, playing 5E for a couple years, start to feel 5E is going nowhere. They just have the same action and same fights over and over again. Everyone in their group uses the same couple "cool" races, classes, and such....and nothing else.

I'd argue that is exactly where D&D needs to be. Its the entry point, the launch pad, the casual pool. They keep catering to that market and the sky is the limit. Others can fill in the needs of a more veteran and complex minded gamer.

And this is on top of the low imagination: I see a lot of DMs struggle with this. They describe a caste as "just a square of stone". A city is just "some streets and shops". And worst of all when they have to describe an Abyssal city......it's just "some streets and towers, oh with demons".

I dont see how the 5E rule system effects this? Perhaps the adventure material, but im not familiar enough with it to comment.

I really think 6E will bump D&D down and out too....

Down and out of what?

 

[Micah Sweet]

I know that "anti-D&D" sounds like I am spoiling for a fight but I am really not. it was the most efficient term I could think of for that era's zeitgeist I am hoping returns. I mean, there's already plenty of antipathy for D&D in parts of the community -- go to r/rpg and ask about a warlock build... I don't actually care for that stuff, especially in its "magical tea party play versus trash trad play" form where folks aren't arguing about games, but whole playstyles.

Anyway, I want to see creators and publishers doing the Big Idea stuff of systems and worlds divorced primarily from 5E but also not just another Year Zero, PbtA or FitD game. The reason I brought up Coville and MCDM wasn't because he's the only one doing it, but that he is a pretty prominent voice and that has the potential to inspire others to do it. I honestly don't quite understand the point of Black Flag in a world where not only is the 5E SRD in the CC but 1D&D isn't particularly far removed from 5E. But who knows, maybe Black Flag will be more of a 5E Arcana Unearthed than a 5E Pathfinder.

Yeah, sometimes I really miss gaming in the 90s. We played a lot of Cyberpunk, Legend of the Five Rings, 7th Sea, Deadlands. And the setting train for 2e D&D was full steam ahead.

 

[Malmuria]

Unlike a lot of current innovation, much of which rely on just a couple systems like PbtA and previously Fate along with things like Free League's and Modiphius' house systems, most of those 90s games came out with new, unique, often baffling game systems attached to equally new, unique and baffling worlds.

Innovation-via-bafflement is my favorite kind!

I feel like we could be at the start of a new 90s in regards to an era where D&D is less popular and there is a new surge of innovation.

Not sure. There was anger at wotc over the ogl thing, but it looks like people are back to breathlessly debating the proposed UA changes and what has been nerfed and buffed and so forth. It seems reasonable to think that eventually people will grow tired of 5e--I'm tired--but I'm not seeing it yet.

MCDM looks to be leading the charge, and I think some of the companies that were considering making D&D clones might adjust their plans and do something new given that 5E under Creative Commons is now safe to publish for again. Those that want to publish for 5E will, but those that want to make their own games will have to do more than make a slightly different 5E to succeed.

The purpose of the OGL was always to drive publishers into the dnd space. Probably whatever 5e clone people use (or a mix of them), core fans will pick up the wotc-published adventures and supplements as well, with everything being roughly compatible with annoying slight differences. As usual, the DM will make up the difference through their hours of prep.

We'll see what MCDM does. I don't see that they've done anything particularly innovative in terms what they've already put out (meaning their 5e-compatible stuff), but I think they can design for a niche audience well enough.

I for one would love it if a new era of pushing back against 5E and D&D's dominance commenced, coupled with a renaissance in new system design.

The biggest trend I see is just more licensed IPs, with the idea that people want to play Avatar or The Walking Dead rather than any particular system.

 

[Reynard]

The biggest trend I see is just more licensed IPs, with the idea that people want to play Avatar or The Walking Dead rather than any particular system.

Licensed RPGs have pretty much always been a thing. I don't think it is particularly surprising to see them in recent years, though the success of Avatar is pretty crazy.

I think the big difference is crowdsourcing. When MCDM finishes their primary design, they won't have to guess whether it's worth the money they'll need to invest to finish it. They'll know. That's huge in a world with shrinking outlets for smaller companies.

 

[bloodtide]

I'd argue that is exactly where D&D needs to be. Its the entry point, the launch pad, the casual pool. They keep catering to that market and the sky is the limit. Others can fill in the needs of a more veteran and complex minded gamer.

Except this does not work for a long term game. Sure it's great that everyone can play the super easy RPG, but then what? There is no reason to leave the other stuff to others.

Also, it's a bit sad that there is the idea that RPGs are "so hard" that normal folks can't play it, so you need a special easy tarter game.

I honestly have trouble following the argument in the OP for a simple reason- we saw an absolute explosion of RPGs in the late 70s and 80s, most of them having completely different systems than D&D did. Even the other games that TSR made used wildly different systems than D&D did.

I think it's the popularity. Sure, by the late 70's everyone with a few blank sheets of paper thought they could make the best RPG ever and make money. So many people just glance at the D&D rules and say they can make something better. So sure you see the "explosion" of RPGs. But they don't stick. D&D stayed on top.

Enter the 90's and D&D drops down hard, and other games are there to pick up the slack. In a lot of cases these games were the 2md or 3rd editions of 70s or 80s games that people were discovering for the first time.